Does the 2022 really just require regular (87) gas

Or is it like what ford does and say it runs on regular but to get full power and efficiency use 91+ fuel?

truthfully I have a hard time believing Toyota is making nearly 400 hp on a tt v6 with regular...

I'd love to see dynos on different grades of gas or if there's some way to detect pinging/detonation with this one.

Edit: changed they’re to Toyota in second line because the sentence was ambiguous.

 

Curious myself. A knock sensor is reactive. How much knocking can an engine withstand over its lifetime? How quick does the ECM respond to knocking before boost/anvance is changed to stop the knocking. My little 124 Abarth recommends 91 minimum. I've been using 93 exclusively. One reason, I doubt the last person using that pump bought 93 so whatever is in the hose, plumbing and valves were most likely 89 octane. Another I treat that car as if the gas pedal is an off/on switch.

 

Here is the Dyno for a 2017+(Gen 2) 3.5L Ecoboost.



Blue is 87 octane, Red is 93. They pick up about 25-30hp going from 87 to 93. This truck was rated at 375 hp crank on 87. So on 87, if it was making about 325 whp, thats a 50 hp driveline loss or about 13% driveline loss which is typical these days.

I don't know how toyota does it but, but Ford's PCM logic has a tremendous amount of variables based on octane. Timing can be adjusted +/- 5* based on the "learned" octane of the fuel. Engine Load(basically airflow) can change based on octane. etc.

The way Ford does it is they have whats called "Knock Retard" which is the on-the-fly timing adjustment. It gets feedback from the knock sensors for when the engine is approching knock. This number constantly fluctuates in an effort to find peak timing. It slowly builds up one small increment at a time(so many degress per second) and then once the sensors hear something, it will instantly pull timing by a couple degrees and start incrementing the timing again. KR can advance 5 degrees or retard 7 degrees on most Ecoboosts.

They also have "Octane Adjust Ratio" which is basically a long term average of the KR. This fluctuates between a +1 and -1. -1 is maximum advance, +1 is maximum retard. The OAR can advance or retard timing 5 degrees as well.

All of this is relative to the boarderline spark tables. Basically the base timing that Ford determined for the entire RPM and Load range the engine will be in. So basically, the PCM looks at the Boarderline tables, then it advances the timing so many degrees above that based on the OAR(up to 5*). And then on top of that, KR can advance another 5 degrees.

The Ford programing seems to be such that 87 octane would result in a 0 OAR. If you dump in 93, you OAR will hit a -1. If the 93 allows more timing than that 5* that the -1 OAR provides, KR will add in on top.

That said, the stock timing has limiters and what not. It won't just max out timing. There are Cylinder Pressure Limit tables and MBT(maximum brake torque tables) in the tune that will limit timing advance. People basically have to run E85 or some other 100+ octane fuel to actually achieve maximum spark in an Ecoboost but it requires custom tuning to allow that much advance. Something in the neighborhood of 93-94 octane is probably about all they can take advantage of stock.

 

That's what the Ford manual also says with many of their engines, because they don't make full power and knock on regular. Likely your Subaru is the same situation. And I’m betting this Toyota is too. Curious if the 2022 tundra manuals say anything about using premium to tow…

 

Your knowledge of this subject is impressive. But the gist of this was my point: Ford trucks make less power on regular than they do on premium.

what I want to know is if the ttv6 in the tundra does the same trick. The more I think about it the more certain I am it does, but I’m curious if anyone has done any testing.

 

I'm going to say just the opposite. Since HP numbers sell vehicles why wouldn't Toyota take advantage of this. Itty bitty print buried elsewhere in the manual stating HP ratings were in Death Valley on a winters night using 93 octane.

 

Of course they make more power on premium. So does vitually any modern engine with modern ignition controls.

That doesnt mean 3.5 Ecoboosts don't make 375 hp on 87 though. My point was, they do. And I bet the Tundra makes 389 on 87 too.

When Ford rates engines on 93, they specifically call it out. The Raptor with the 3.5 HO was this way, the Lincoln Navigator is, the Mustang is. The Expedition Platinum at one point had a higher rating than the other trims. The engine was physically identical and the difference was that Ford rated the Platinum trim only on 93. They had a little "*" under the ratings stating this. It gained 25 hp and I think 30 tq from the 93 according to Ford

 

Because truck owners don't wanna pay for premium. Well, most don't. 50 cents a gallon is a lot.

To my knowledge, the ONLY truck motor that is rated on premium besides the Raptor is GM's 6.2L. So it does not really put them at a disadvantage since no one else is doing it.

Of course, that is not always true. I do put premium in my truck, but only because here in Utah its only 15 cents more per gallon that 87/88. I even throw in Boostane into my truck to bump it to 94 when I tow, which costs about 15 cents per gallon. It pulls like a locomotive on 94. But back in 2017/2018 when I bought my trailer the difference between 87 and 91 was a lot greater and I towed all around Utah, WY, and ID on 87.

And SAE requires they rate the engine in certain conditions, meaning temperature and air pressure. They can't just cheat it like that.

 

To show what I mean:

 

the tundra makes its rated power on 87 , sweers himself said this.

premium is a mofo around here, like a full dollar or more per gallon

 

Personally I would run higher octane for towing heavy or towing up grades with a turbo/high compression engine.

I dunno, is the 3rd gen rated for e85? That would be a lower cost option vs premium if you can find it.

Otherwise, regular all day baby.

 

If you’ve ever driven a supercharged 3.4l Toyota. You’ll know they’ll go for decades with horrible spark knock

 

Think they stated its limited to E10-E15 max. Kind of dumb when you have dual injection, might as well allow it to run a flex setup.

 

the last thing any of us wanted was another flex set-up and more alcohol sensor BS , Im glad they did away with it

come to think of it, does this new one have AIP?

 

It might be a limitation in fueling. As in the HPFP cannot provide the additional 30% flow that is needed for E85.

It could also be because it would make an insane amount of torque and power if allowed to take full advantage of the added timing. I would guess they could pick up 50-75 hp if they let it advance to its full potential. Guys who have tuned Ecoboost say the switching to E85 tunes from a 93 tune is like going from stock to tuned.

I don't think they need sensors now. All the Ford motors infer ethanol content without a sensor.

The 3.5L Ecoboost doesn't have E85 capability from the factory but the logic is actually built into the PCM already. HPTuners and a few other tuning platforms can turn it on and you can have full E85 capability without and physical changes to the truck. All the tables and settings to run E85 are in the factory software.

 

very very impressive. And yeah premium here is 60 to sometimes 70 cents more a gallon around here. Won’t ever buy anything that requires premium on a daily driver.

pretty excited about this new truck. I’m looking for reasons to not buy one and I can’t find one yet…

 

DAP tuning has even stated, I think it’s an FAQ on his website actually…that on the stock NA tundra 5.7 the ECU pulls timing on 87, less on 89, and so on up to 93. The most power and least knock retard he found was achieved with the highest octane fuel. He suggests running 93 regardless of if it’s tuned or not, although most wouldn’t

 

Well that's stupid. E85 works well for boosted applications. For $50,000 each you would think toyota could be bothered to make a flex fuel system that works. 10 years behind the curve in a bad way yet again.

 

I think its probably a power/torque issue. I bet if you just slapped E85 in and let the ignition system take full advantage without changing anything else, it would probably be making 600 ft-lbs of torque and 475 hp.

I suspect Toyota doesnt want to make 600 ft-lbs of torque out of a 3.5L.

This isnt grandpa's 2.5 gen Tundra with a port injected V8 that might pick up a few ft-lbs. of torque

 

Most likely, it just irks me that if you're going to drop the money into doing dual injection, why not just raise the cost by a fraction to include a higher rated hpfp/lpfp, and allow for e85. I run E30 in my GTI and it is definitely night and day compared to my 91/93 tunes.

 

I thought the only thing E85 boosted was Farm Subsidies.

 

If Toyota had rated the truck using premium the engine would make 410 hp like in the Land Cruiser and LX. I bet the engine tuning is different too so running anything higher than 87 won’t net you any benefits in normal driving situations. However, I would provably run at least 91 while towing, especially in summer since it should help with knocking.

 

If I had a TT V6 in a pick up I'd be running a higher octane regardless.

Triple this in warmer climates.

 

Paying 20% more for fuel is hard to swallow. I don't mind it so much in a car that gets upper 30's MPG and is a fun time toy not a daily driver.

 

Yeah I saw that a few days ago. He claims significant amounts of timing pulled on lower octane fuels. I found that interesting. Wonder if it's true?

 

"Does the 2022 really just require regular (87) gas"?
YES!

 

Yes.

You can use regular with confidence.

It will also take E-15. Or “unleaded 88” as its called nowadays