This is why the Tundra isn't class leading in Towing

So, while looking for other info I stumbled across this portion of a TFL segment with Mike Sweers from Toyota. He's the guy that would have the info, so watch about 5 minutes from where I have the video set to start.

https://youtu.be/w5InMb0kEt8?t=460


I don't think this is an endorsement of towing over capacity or anything. That's just being dumb, but it does give some insight as to why the Tundra is not higher rated. They cut off the tow rating at the point the Truck stops being an easy tow, where as others push to the maximum the truck can pull and still pass the test.

Basically, Toyota is curbing the consumer tendency to run the maximum and have a terrible tow experience by lowering the rating the point that even at max it won't be awful. I like the logic behind it, but not sure this isn't just a marketing ploy to cover a lower rating. Has anyone towed at or near max? Does it get white knuckle, or is Sweers speaking truth when stating it can tow max rating without being a shit show?

 

I sold an '18 Limited CM TRD Offroad and purchased a '22 at the same trim level. Having towed the same trailer with both (dry weight of 6500 lbs), the '22 tows much better. I am pretty objective about things in general, so I am not just saying that to justify my purchase. I get a touch more sway and squat, but I am guessing that has to do with going from leaf springs to coilover suspenension.

 

So you’re thinking they rated it below the numbers it could actually achieve and meet the SAE J-2807 standards? Sounds unlikely to me, but if so that’s awfully honest of them to shoot themselves in the foot.

So you have more sway and squat with the 22, but it tows better? I assume you mean in the power department?

 

Like I said, it may just be a marketing motivated angle, but who knows. I don't have one to test it, and that's why I was hoping somebody had towed at max. I'm inclined to think a max rating tow would be miserable, just like any other truck, but I also know most people towing don't follow the manufacturer's recommendations anyway. How many people do you know that tow a travel trailer and intentionally run at 60-65 vs how many do you know that have that sucker pinned to go as fast as they can? Trailer tire ratings and truck manufacturer guidelines be damned, they want to go 80+ on the interstate and if they can't "this truck sucks at towing" is the result.

 

If I'm understanding that video, what he is saying is that other brands list the absolute max you can "safely" tow, but the Tundra #'s are what you can comfortably tow.

Is that what he's saying? That great if he's saying the Tundra really can comfortably and safely tow 10k+ pounds, but personally, I still wouldn't feel comfortable at that weight in a 1/2 ton.

I'm curious what type of trailer they are considering as well due to wind effect. A flatbed trailer loaded with 10k pounds of flat steel will tow better than a 10k pound 30+ft travel trailer.

 

I agree.

 

Seems decent enough, but I worked for a boss that was publicly a great guy. He was a micromanaging narcissistic prick to all of us on his team. Petty, vindictive, and equipped with a silver tongue that to this day still protects his position with HR and the company board. As a result, I don't expect bosses to be good, I cover my ass by getting everything in writing, and I don't do extra miles without extra pay anymore.

 

You left out "...they want to set the cruise at 80+ on the interstate and if they can't..."

 

Even if they are paying enough attention to not use cruise most still try to run speed limit. Every year cruising down I-25, I-15, or I-80 I see tons of campers pulled to the side with a blown tire, sometimes 2 tires on a tandem axle because they didn't notice the first one disintegrating, or brakes on fire because they ride them down a hill that they didn't slow down for. No matter what is done to idiot proof things a newer and stupider idiot is always waiting in the wings to show how low we can really go.

 

OK, I get his logic, and that's nice, but what about what the truck can SAFELY tow, even if you have to work harder driving it? You may normally two within that comfortable range, but what if you need to tow a larger load. Is it safe to tow it? We'll never know thanks to this logic.

 

Not taking a dig at the 3rd gen here, it’s numbers are still improved over previous. That said; It sounds better to say the max towing is the max of what’s comfortable than saying your highly anticipated, years in development “world beater” doesn’t have class leading numbers. I find it hard to believe they sandbagged themselves below SAE honestly. If nothing else I think he would have been forthright with TFL and say, these are our published numbers but we could have quoted higher numbers and still achieved the SAE testing standards.

 

Decided to dig around trying to find the most recent J2807 Rev 202002, but only found the Rev from 2016 unless I pay SAE $85. No thanks. All the images I have found of Half-tons performing the test showed a flat bed trailer with steel ballast, max height looks lower than tailgate. This was just my basic Google search FWIW

Here are the main test methods trucks would be measured on as per J2807:

• Cooling capability on a long highway upgrade modeled on the Davis Dam grade on Arizona SR 68 at 100 degrees temperature outside;
  • The Davis Dam Grade Arizona State Route 68 is a stretch of road that starts in the Davis Dam area of the Colorado River, close to Laughlin, Nevada, and Bullhead City, Arizona, with an elevation of just about 550 feet. This stretch of highway travels through the Black Mountains and climbs to Highway 93 near Kingman, Arizona. The section used for the SAE J2807 Highway Gradeability Test starts just past the intersection of SR 68 and Highway 95 outside of Laughlin and climbs to more than 3,500 feet (3000ft change) in just 11.4 miles.
  • In addition to a hot climate outside the truck, the test requires the air conditioning system to be set at maximum cold, with outside air selected (not recirculating) and the fan running at full blower speed.
• Launch and acceleration performance on a level road and a 12 percent upgrade;
  • a truck must be able to launch and travel 16 feet (5 meters) uphill, five times in a row, in 5 minutes or less. Then, the truck and trailer has to be able to complete the same test while launching up a 12 percent grade in Reverse.
• A truck-and-trailer combination must be able to drive at 40 mph (35 mph for dualies) and never drop below that speed until the end of the test segment at the peak of Union Pass.
• Combined handling performance – understeer and trailer sway;
  • Understeer (the opposite of fishtailing) is measured at three different levels of Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR), which is a calculation of how much the load on the front axle changes.
• Combined braking performance – stopping distance and parking brake-hold on grade; and
  • Combos with a maximum tow rating of more than 3,000 pounds are required to stop completely from 20 mph in 80 feet or less. During this stop test, the trailer must remain within an 11.5-foot-wide lane throughout the entire stop. In addition to the active testing, the parking brake must be able to hold the truck and trailer firmly in place both upward and downward on a 12 percent grade when it is at the maximum GCWR.
• Structural performance for the vehicle and hitch or hitch receiver.

It assumes

• For light-duty full-size pickups (GVWR < 8,500 lbs.), SAE J2807 assumes that the tow vehicle includes any options with higher than 33 percent penetration;
• It assumes there is both a driver and passenger in the vehicle, each weighing 150 pounds;
• It assumes that tow vehicles also include up to 70 pounds of aftermarket hitch equipment (where applicable); and
• For conventional trailer towing, SAE J2807 assumes that 10 percent of the trailer weight is on the tongue.

 

That is great information! I never knew how they did the testing, but now it makes sense as to why a 1/2 ton can be rated for 12,000lbs but still pucker your hole when towing a 9,000lb travel trailer. It's all that wind resistance that their test machine didn't have.

 

Yup. They do the test that way to get the highest number on the paper. If they had to use a travel trailer the numbers would be 70-80% of what they post at an absolute max. That's why it's commonly recommended to stay that far below the max.

 

SAE J2807 does specify a frontal area for the trailer to meet these requirements. Up to 17000 lb trailer weight should have a frontal area of 64 sq. ft. That’s an 8’x8’ box on the trailer.

I think Ford is really chasing a numbers game. Their F150’s highest GCWR is 19,500 lbs on the 3.5 Ecoboost Crew Cab standard bed. Compare that to Tundra’s 17,700 lbs on SR5. All of Ford’s max tow package equipped vehicles exceed Tundra’s GCWR. GM and Chrysler are similar but only certain packages. Silverado RST with the 6.2 is rated at 19,100 lbs GCWR and Ram quad cab 4x2 is at 18,350 lbs.

Otherwise, nearly every other spec F150, Silverado, Ram is equal or much less than Tundra’s GCWR.

 

Well bingo. For decades the parking brake on a Tundra couldn't hold back Grandma on the hover round.

 

You don’t need safety!

The speed rating on those trailer tires and axles are only a suggestion. They’re just as good as stuff on a Class 8 tractor trailer combo.

Checking tire pressures and condition before going on a trip on a 100F day is for chumps!

You don’t need to put grease in those trailer axle hubs, just skip it.

You only know your trailer brakes work if you can smell them. Even better if they show you how good they are by igniting.

Now get out there and send her all the way because only pansies tow their recreational trailers at or below the speed limit!

 

Towing over 8,000lbs with a truck this size can get sketchy, period.
Just my .02.
If I was constantly towing 9,000+ lb loads of look into an F-250, 2500, etc.

 

I’m sure glad that my trailer is registered as commercial, and as such, I am not a pansy or any other sort of flowery foliage. I contravene each and every one or your recommendations every time. But hey, life’s too short to make it shorter…

 

I don’t always choose to give towing advice, but when I do it is bad advice.

 

Artificially limiting the towing capacity is kinda dumb to me because, as most of us know, most half tons can’t tow at their upper limits without exceeding some other capacity first(tongue weight, payload, axle rating, gcwr).

All this does is make it so that the real world limits are lower. If your axle rating is lower, so is your real world towing capability. If your tongue weight rating is lower, so is your real world capacity. And so on.

So yeah, they arnt playing “the game” but, even if you’re not planning to tow 14000 lbs, the usable capacity of the truck is still lower than it could be.

 

The lowest towing capacity of an F150 supercab or supercrew 3.5 ecoboost(the equivalent configurations available with the tundra) is 11,000 lbs which is right in line with a Tundra.

The other engines can be lower as you would expect.

 

+ Totally ignore the Sequential Shifter and drive it like they drove their '83 Reliant!

 

In my truck search to pull a travel trailer I noticed the Ranger with its claimed 7,500 pound towing capacity has some small print. Max 55 sq ft of frontal area. I assume a trailer's coefficient of drag is used to calculate this number but don't know if the area blanked by the TV is subtracted.

I know the parking brake on my Tundra wasn't even close to being properly adjusted when I got mine. No way it would have held the truck alone on a 12% grade. Someday I'll go through the proper adjustment procedure starting at the rear wheels and get it right.

 

Took me a couple tries and watching the Asian guy on You Tube (and sending his video to my Mechanic) to get my Park Brake holding the weight of my truck.

 

Not trying to derail the thread, but what’s the weight difference between the non-hybrid and hybrid real axel? The hybrid axel is supposed to be beefier, but I don’t think I’ve seen the numbers for it.

 

Is the axle actually beefier, or is it just the suspension in the rear to hold the battery weight? I honestly do not know.

 

Wish I knew the axle weight. It’s definitely bigger. Hybrid has 10.5” rear end vs the 9.5” in the gas truck.