Stock brake system versus brakeless trailer towing. Is 1st Gen up to it?

Get some 2010 GX460/4runner calipers and be done with this nonsense.

 

Yes.

 

I recommend cranking two or three more star wheel clicks into the rear adjustment. You don’t want too much drag, but a bit of drag gives a firmer pedal and less pedal travel. See if it helps.

 

Installed new StopTech brake hoses (stainless) front, adjusted rear shoes tight, readjusted bellcranks. Gave the bleeding a shot but not happy with how it went, gonna buy an air powered vacuum bleeder at HF tomorrow and redo. Need to seal around bleeder screw threads to prevent air introduction while bleeding with screws cracked open, probably swab threads with anti-seize and wrap with teflon tape. Pedal is better but still not real firm and will occasionally drop to floor under hard pressure while sitting at a stop.

If I end up having to replace the master cylinder and/or changeout the front calipers & rotors (with 4Runner 14"), the vacuum bleeder will come in handy and hopefully avoid the wife/helper confusion.

I'll keep you guys posted after I get thru next bleeding process.

 

Just curious - how much can these trucks comfortably tow if you ARE using trailer brakes? The owners manual says around 6,800lbs for my access cab, but that why higher than I'm seeing people discuss on this form. I'm wondering if a 23-26 foot trailier (like an Airstream) would still be asking too much.

 

correction - "that is way higher than I see people discuss on this forum."

 

yes
Way too much
That’s a whole lot to carry with a truck that’s the size of a current Tacoma
Sure these were considered full size but they are smaller than the comparable Chevrolet and dodge trucks. Now with everything getting bigger, these trucks are barely bigger than a modern day Tacoma. Trailer brakes and a good trailer brake controller will stop the trailer but towing it effectively, that seems to be a bit large of a trailer honestly.

 

This much? 6500# UVW with trailer brakes


This much? 1500# trailer and 5000# SUV with no trailer brakes?



This much? 7200# UVW with trailer brakes

 

Comfort is a highly individual thing. I towed this for years with a 98 Tacoma. ~3,000lbs.







More than a few on the trailer forum considered it way undersized/underpowered. They weren't wrong, exactly...but it was well within the 5,000lb tow limit of the Tacoma. With trailer brakes, it wasn't bad. It was slow. Slamming the brakes in traffic during an emergency? Sketchy. But I made it work for thousands of miles.

Now I tow the same trailer with my Tundra. I've got to say, I wouldn't be "comfortable" towing anything bigger. It's rated for more weight, obviously people tow more with them, but I wouldn't be comfortable.

 

Thanks. That's the feedback I was looking for. So the general outline is: i) lighter and smaller is best, but 5-7k is possible, ii) trailer brakes are strongly recommended, especially as the weight increases, iii) go slow and presumably do not use overdrive.

For those towing heavier tailers, I'm wondering if that includes long distances? If you are towing campers you plan on long trips, so I'm wondering what your experience is towing that heavy for long distances?

 

wouldn’t have towed any of those in my prior post long distance.

 

I agree, I wouldn't consider towing a 23' travel trailer with this truck, unless for an extremely short distance and not loaded up for a trip. I towed a 17' Casita, which had brakes, for awhile with mine, and with the bed and trailer loaded for a long distance extended trip, that had the truck about maxxed out, as far as I was concerned. And I only towed on relatively flat ground, no steeper grades.

Unless I am able to get my brakes straightened out, I consider my 3,000lb boat/trailer (no brakes) too much load to tow safely, never mind comfortably, with this truck. Please don't do anything that will jeopardize the safety of you/your family and others on the road, just so you can tell people you did. Everything is fine/great until someone pulls out, cuts in or panic stops in front of you and then it's not, unfortunately then you and/or others might be dead.

 

Very clear and agree safety is primary. Good to know your experience. Thank you!

 

I'd tow my 17' 3,000lb trailer anywhere with the Tundra. I live in mountain pass country. Again, this comes down to comfort and expectations. Some people think that if they can't drive up a mountain pass at 80mph towing their trailer, the truck is underpowered. Seriously. I see the attitude on forums. Instead I watch the semis. 45mph, flashers on going up mountain passes. I get in line with them. With my Tacoma, that meant 3rd gear (manual transmission), 45mph, flashers. No biggie. Similar deal with the Tundra. OD off, drop into 2nd, flashers.

I wouldn't tow anything near the size of my trailer without trailer brakes. Not in the mountains, especially, but also not around town where you might need to slam the brakes suddenly.

I live in Montana and I towed that trailer to southern Utah a couple times with the Tacoma. Finally decided to stop doing that and tent camp instead for a couple reasons. One because yeah, that trailer taxed the Tacoma, and that's a long haul. But also, it really limited where I could camp. Lots of roads I couldn't get down.

I'd have no issue doing a cross-country road trip with the Tundra and this trailer. They're pretty well matched.

 

Your current tire size and gear ratio will also play a huge part in towing. It won’t let you tow past whatever the truck is designed to, but what it will do is allow the engine and transmission to pull stonger, more efficiently, and brake quicker. Dropping down to the stock sized 245/70-16 will be quite noticeable from the 265 tires. Also swapping out your 3.90 R&P for a 4.10 will make a huge difference in pulling power.

 

One of the reasons I didn't mind so much having to settle for 255 70 16s. It was that or 265 75 16 in the tire I wanted, which definitely sapped power. The 255s are midway between the smaller and larger stock size for these trucks, and while they don't have that cool "oversize" look to them, they definitely look like the stock size tires for the truck. Just regular truck tires.

 

OK. Finished a full bleed of the brake system with my new HF vacuum bleeder. Thing work really good, 1 man operation. At each wheel, before bleeding, pulled the bleed screw out and sealed the threaded area with teflon tape, reinstalled screw, then bled until no sign of bubbles in the tube to the vacuum bleeder. Pulled atleast 6 ounces thru each rear cylinder. Pulled atleast 4 ounces thru each front caliper. Total bled was 20+ ounces. Before I bled the last caliper I emptied the bleeder reservoir. Bleed fluid from the last caliper was nice clear new fluid, so I'm sure the entire system was flushed. Bled atleast an ounce or 2 at each caliper/cylinder after I saw the last bubble.

Had to manually readjust the rear shoes back down a couple of clicks each because drums were getting hot just from driving around the block, indicating shoes too tight. Readjusted bellcranks.

Not happy. Brake pedal is better than before but still not what I call good. Not even close to the pedal feel in my Miata or our 2020 Odyssey van. Brakes don't seem to engage until atleast 1/3 of the pedal travel. When applying pedal after stopped, occasionally pedal will travel almost to floor. With LSPV adjusted to full extent of linkage, still cannot squeal rear tires. Truck stops OK, but still not what I would call good or great. Rear shoes are new OEM, front pads are OEM with good thickness (maybe 15k miles on them).

I'm pretty sure I'm looking at have to replace the master cylinder, unless you guys tell me and confirm that what I've got now is as good as I can expect out of the stock brake system.

Thanks for input, Jim

 

I've been running a raybestos MC for the last 2 years. While i dont expect my truck to stop like a miata, its never let me hit anyone. Well, except for a deer, but i'll blame that on tall grass & the only other jackass on the road at 2am speedmatching me.

i dont know about the OEM pads, when i got the truck it had a MC leak making the fronts drag, but i'm happy with the z23 powerstop pads. Your tires are 1.5" taller than mine, and probably heavier, and your truck is heavier, so i can see what i'd consider adequate feeling lacking on your side.

 

Hey Jim. Is your ebrake adjusted properly AND holding the truck appropriately? When it is applied and you put the truck in drive, even lightly touch throttle, will the brake hold?

 

Yes, e-brake holds truck well. Have already gone thru the bellcrank and e-brake adjustments, read posts 26 and 34. This is a continuing saga.......

 

Ordered the master cylinder reservoir cap for pressure bleeding that was linked in other thread. Did a full "pressure bleed" on the entire system. Result: noticeably better brake pedal (sponginess gone but still a little more travel than I like). Feeling a little better about the brakes. Would I call the stock 13L brakes system good? No. I can stand on them and they just don't slow the truck down like I would like it to. Nowhere near as good as brakes on the 2018 Tundra I test drove or the brakes on our 2020 Odyssey or on my previous 2002 Powerstroke Ford.

Next step: upgrade the front to GX460 calipers and rotors. Hoping with these I can gain a noticeable stopping power improvement. (?)
*Pads: Think I'll go with either the Powerstop 36 Towing pads or the EBC "yellow stuff".
*Rotors: Powerstop? (I can get a

$230 K5873-36 Power Stop Brake Kit For 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016-2022 Lexus GX460 Toyota 4Runner Front Z36 Truck & Tow with Carbon Fiber Ceramic Brake Pads and Drilled and Slotted Brake Rotors K5873-36

K5873-36 kit with the rotors and pads)
*Calipers: unsure, Jim Smola says Powerstops suck, Shifty likes them. Smola likes TRQ but they don't get good reviews otherwise and are foreign origin. No doubt OEM Toyota best.
*Machining caliper ears: Found a good local machine shop to machine the caliper ears for reasonable $. How much do I need to have machined off the ears? I've seen both 3mm and 3.5mm in different threads.

If brake upgrade works out, I'll move on to valve cover gaskets and some clear coat touch up. Maybe swap to a 9" screen head unit so I can do carplay maps. Maybe add an Addco rear sway bar. Pretty sure this 86k mile truck, which I only put about 2-3k miles a year on now and only need for boat towing, will last me until I sell the boat (maybe another 10 or 12 years, I'm 72 years old now). Wife wants a new Lexus SUV, so we'll probably get one, we drive hers mostly.

Please advise guys and Thanks for all your help. Great Forum. Jim

 

FYI ... I'm not reading back thru both pages to see what's been said, just piping in: I feel like this is a classic "rear of the truck and/or LSPV is not adjusted correctly" symptom.

I would not spend the money on this:

Until you are 100% sure (1) the LSPV is properly functioning and dialed-in correctly, and (2) your rears are dialed in properly.

 

Shifty, you've posted numerous times in this thread - hopefully not without reading what you were posting about. How exactly do you propose that I make "100% sure the LSPV is functioning properly"? I know you posted excerpts from the FSM showing putting my truck up on scales and breaking into the hydraulic system to install pressure gauges. Please advise if you, or any other forum member has gone to that extent to verify proper LSPV function. I'm guessing not. I have no scales, neither do the dealerships - I called and asked them. Where/how do I break into the brakes system to install gauges? The dealerships have no idea - I called and asked them. MY LSPV linkage is adjusted to the maximum extent possible at this point.

I'm saying I believe the stock brake system on these trucks is weak. I can link to many forum posts that mirror and support this position. After all the work I've personally performed on these stock brakes, I'm pretty well convinced that they're not going to get any better. I've driven several 1st gens recently and none had brakes any better than mine.

If you know, from personal experience, a brake system mod(s) that can be done to effectively and measurably improve brake system performance on my truck, please advise. The majority of the few that have posted on this forum or youtube about having swapped larger GX460 rotors/calipers onto their trucks state that the trucks' brake performance was noticeably improved. I haven't done it (yet), I don't think you have either, so I don't know. But bigger rotors, bigger caliper pistons, better pads, (to me) = potentially better braking capacity/performance.

The wear on my front brakes is currently at a state that they could be replaced. I've gotten my "return on investment" on the existing brakes. The GX460 parts are no more expensive than the stock tundra parts other than a few bucks to machine the caliper ears. Why would I put weak stock crap back on my truck if for a few bucks more I could install something to noticeably improve performance?

At this point I need a measurement to tell the machine shop how much to mill off the caliper ears.

Thanks for any good, reasonable advice. Jim, out.

 

The first thing I'd do is verify the rear drums are operating as one would expect. i.e. you can barely, with force, turn the drum with the wheel off. Making note whether you have LSD rear or not will impact ability to rotate wheels.

If you're dialed in on the rears, 100%, and the LSPV shaft is adjusted all the way up the shaft as indicated in the 'rear brake adjustment theory' sticky thread, you need to consider your LSPV may be toast. If it is, rather than replace it, I'd actually move toward LSPV delete, replacing the LSPV and its linkage with a Wilwood PV, and just nix that system altogether. Which I intend to do ultimately with my truck, and I think everyone else should too, frankly.

And of course, if you haven't bled or attempted to bleed the LSPV yet, it supposedly likes to hold air, so you'd be a fool not to purge/flush it.

 

Shifty, we've been thru all this - I have my rear and emergency/parking brake adjustment maxxed out thru a couple of adjustment iterations after new shoe install (you already read that part of the thread and commented on it). LSPV has been bled and flushed to death, both with vacuum and now pressure.

Please link to kit for LSPV delete. I'll do that with the front brake upgrade.

If I ever get the performance of the brake system on this truck to what I consider acceptable, I'll post and let everyone know. If not, I'll post that too. I really like this truck, but it's not perfect.

 

My caliper advice is to rebuild. For my 13WE calipers I was able to purchase a complete OEM seal rebuild kit for around $25. I would assume that the same could be found for a GX460 caliper. It took me less than an hour to rebuild both of my front calipers, it is simple and easy to do with an air compressor and a pick tool. You could probably save a few bucks by purchasing used calipers and rebuilding them with an OEM kit. This would ensure OEM quality and longevity.

Over the summer I did very similar brake work to you and I have had very similar issues getting acceptable braking performance from my truck. I agree with you that the braking performance on our trucks is sub-par at the very best. There have been a handful of times when I've needed maximum braking capacity to prevent a collision, and the possibility of not having enough brakes to stop in time is always in the back of my head. Props to you for doing the best you can to get the best braking performance. I think it's something that plenty of people on here don't pay enough attention to- it's something that I definitely didn't think about much until I redid my brakes and likely doubled their performance.

Addco sway bar is 100% a good move. Mine has completely transformed the way my truck drives, and has probably quadrupled my confidence in the truck's road handling. It feels as stable as my Lexus LS430 at 100mph. It is wonderful on the highway, and there is significantly less sway when there's 800+lbs in the bed. Can't say what it'll do for towing since I haven't towed with my truck, but I'd imagine there would be a very noticeable improvement in control. It seems to be very well tuned to our trucks, it's effective but still allows for axle flex. I wouldn't want it to be stiffer. I can't reiterate this enough- it's worth every penny.

If you're interested in getting one I would look to make sure they aren't backordered. I had to wait 5 months to get mine. I'm not sure if they still are having issues getting them out in time but I'd check.

 

FiatRunner, so you're saying I'm not crazy thinking things about this truck could be better?

 

You're definitely not crazy. I see where you're coming from.

That said- stuff like this is entirely subjective. I didn't think my brakes were an issue until I replaced them and my performance increase was astounding. I can certainly see why some folks on here have no issue with their brakes. Unless people are comparing numbers and figures, everything is going to be subjective. Poor performance to you might be just fine for someone else. Hell, good performance to you might be too powerful for someone else.

I hope that you can get your truck to the point that you're satisfied with it. I think it's fair to assume that being satisfied is what we all want out of our trucks.

 

I'll agree, it's subjective. But I'd also warn against making apples to oranges comparisons. The way a 2000 year access cab and its brake configuration will stop is going to be quite different from how a 2006 double cab's brake config will stop. Not only is there a noteworthy weight and chassis difference, but they came from the factory with different equipment. Even after upgrading 13WE -> 13WL with the necessary larger rotors and pads in the 2000, the differences are still pretty wild. Even comparing my same-year access cab is probably apples to oranges.

I guess I'm the oddball. I'm actually pretty alright with how my truck brakes. It brakes better than 90% of the other trucks I've owned with rear drums.

 

You're very right. I've driven an 05 double cab and it's brakes were definitely stronger than those on my truck. I even had to stomp on the brakes when I was driving that 05 when someone pulled out in front of me. They're far from the same. That said, even on an 05 with properly adjusted brakes (the owner is obsessive about using the parking brake), I could still see why someone who tows might still want some more braking power.

I can fully understand why you might be fully content with your brakes. Do I think our brakes underperform? No. But I would consider them to be the worst performing aspect of our trucks, when you consider how well they handle, how smooth they ride, and how well-tuned the powertrains are. I'm fine with mine.

I hope this doesn't come across as me knocking your POV here. It's just personal preference.

Edit: I just realized that my braking performance expectations are likely skewed by the amount of heavy trucks I drive for work, all which have huge, commercial-use brakes. F350s, F550s, F750s. All stop faster than our trucks. Again- apples to oranges here. But if those trucks can stop fast- why can't our small, lightweight trucks?