06 AC w/oem HU Speaker Upgrade brands?

1st off, the Mods may feel this is better off in the gn'l A-V forum, but I think the cab and road noise character of FGT warrants this forum. So Mods, move if you must, but Im focused here on FGT Cab-Speaker environment.

Im currently looking to upgrade all 6 OEM speakers with modern, 'plugn play'.
IE: Not interested in an external amp or a Sub [yet]; want to see what works w/current non-JBL HU and for eventual Alpine ilx507 [non Sub'd or ExtAmp'd].
If too large an ocean of choices for anyone to comment, at very least, I'd like to stay below $4-5 hundred for all six and would like to take advantage of the ilx507 frequency response and of course, something that will work w/my OEM until install of ilx507.
If nothing else, at least comment on what to definitely stay away from or systems that just are not worth an FGT noise environment, which I think is not very bad for a full size-OEM exhaust v8.
Also, most often listen to music via FM [HD if in broadcast area], USB files, and cell streams.

So, what say you?.. let the opinions, warnings, commentary begin w/what you have and what you'd do different for more or less money, etc. AND of course pics...

 

The options range from OK performance in the $60-100 a pair range, to really good sound in the $120-200 a pair range. The more expensive, better sounding ones are gonna want more power than the OEM HU can provide and may leave you disappointed. But amp them up and wow! The cheaper ones with lower power requirements may sound better on the OEM HU output and give satisfactory improvement, but have a performance ceiling that will leave you disappointed once you add great sound shaping and more power off the Alpine or a dedicated amp.

 

This is going to be like a tire thread. Everyone has a differing opinion because everyone hears sound differently. I personally prefer Infinity products. Some will say there's too much high end and they're tinny. I really like the accuracy of Infinity and have had good results for many years on many different vehicles when EQ'd properly. I'm also running them through a Kenwood Excelon HU on my 1GT which allows a lot of customization. Getting ready to swap out the JBL system on my 5th gen 4Runner for Infinity as well. Just did the HU, again with Kenwood Excelon.

 

thx. @KNABORES : very concise. Im willing to put up w/some below std performance w/oem HU til near midsummer when I'll install the 507 by itself. So then it would be more practical to match to the 18w Alpine. Not sure what watt output is on the nonJBL units, but i doubt its even 14-16 like most modern HUs; and yes, i'll bypass the oem ext amp.

Related pics [and question] of OEM Tweeter:
As Toyota installed


Partially removed view


a close view of leads connections [w/a capacitor?]


better pic of oem tweeter leads



So, not to turn this into an install tutorial, but we're here now, so question:
For NEW tweeter install, cut both the Solid Red and Black-Red striped leads away from OEM tweeter; then wire direct to NEW tweeter [correct polarity] and done?

 

An aftermarket component speaker set will come with its own crossover. You remove the factory tweeter and mid driver, install new aftermarket ones and mount the crossover in the door. The crossover takes the full range input from the main door lead and splits it, providing an output to its own mid and tweet (you'll run a new wire to the new tweeter and mid driver)

 

Ok. Dont laugh too hard; im a EWD logic illiterate.

Sounds like abandoning OEM door wire between Tweetr and door dongle [shown in 1st pic @left], then install 2 new speaks w/ new lead between them and 'Crossover' wired between the 2 new speaks...?
Then, NEW Mid-driver input wired direct from existing input leads of OEM Mid-driver [replaced].
or my schematic:

Existing config: Signal Input > - - ->OEM Mid > - - ->OEM Tweet

Replacement config: Signal Input > - - - - > NEW Mid > - - - - > XOver > - - - -> NEW Tweet. END.

>- - - -> = Signal input lead pair.

 

Aftermarket speakers have a number of configurations which makes setup a little different. Just looking at the new Alpine R-Series R2-S65C Speakers manual, the main full-range input goes to the mid-driver 1st then to the crossover, then to the tweeter, the 6.5"mid actually has 2 sets of spade terminals.

Other systems have:

• full-range signal
  • crossover
    • mid-driver
    • tweeter

At bare minimum (toyota) it's full range in, and just Y split at the 6.5" and run to the tweeter with a capacitor in-line to knock down the low frequencies.

Basic component speaker setup:

• full-range
  • Mid-driver
  • in-line capacitor
    • tweeter

Aftermarket setups use a crossover for better sound quality, but pay attention to the RMS power(watt) needs of a component system, many of them need an amp to get proper performance.

You can just get a new tweeter if yours is blown

 

thx @StellarBlue for helping me see the light.
While its all tore down for paint, figured Id replace all 6; afterall it is 19yrs old. Catchup w/new HU later.
Excellent point on the nuances of various systems, especially taking note of minumum power output for a 4ohm- 6 speaker system.
Checking User Manuals for various manufacturers.

 

Yeah, I could see the relativity or subjectivity of making brand comparisons. Unfortunately, fewer Walk-in retailers like BB or custom shops put much time into maintaining an operational display board anymore, so hands on assessments might be thing of the past. Seems reduced to being able to interpret specifications [and know how that might turn out w/your HU] OR, marketing speak and hyperbole w/out much context.

 

Happy to help, I was a car stereo geek 20 years ago, ammusingly on these same trucks. When buying speakers its useful to think of the speaker pulling that rms power out of your system rather than your system providing it. If the speaker needs much more than the system can push, it can overheat and blow the deck or amp, the speaker won't care. ie a 60watt rms per channel Alpine speaker set (separate components up front, combined 6.5 out back-6 speaker/4 channel) running off a base toyota head unit that can probably push ~15 watts rms/channel, will eventually kill the deck, but the speakers will have barely been broken in.

Like anything else, car stereo is happy to swallow as much money as you want to throw at it.

 

Ok, thx again @StellarBlue.
that keeps things in perspective. Not too worried about frying the OEM HU.
Looks like the plain 18watt spec of the ilx507 might also be on the low side for some speakers specs claiming 100watt rms + 300watt peak handling?

 

To get the most bang vs. buck I would:

• Opt for speakers that have 3ohm impedance for a little extra draw on the OEM HU amp, but not so much (2ohm) that it would potentially cause you damage.
• Use components up front, tee off the OEM Y-cable and run its single adapter pair into the component crossover to feed the front pair of speakers
• Choose a component set with tweeter that has a center-post option to allow re-using the steel bracket holding the OEM tweeter to maintain OEM sound staging and cover for a more-stealth appearance.
• On the rear door, I’d probably look for a 3oh biaxial in the largest size you can find (6.5 - 6.75) though I don’t think a 7” would fit. I really wish I’d have taken measurements last time my rear suicide door panel was off.

 

@ps8820 100watts rms is Amp territory, I wouldn't run anything that needs that much to move off just a radio.

@shifty` My 2 cents, 4ohm and 6.5" are 100/1 more readily available than 3ohm and 7". I wouldn't run anything lower than 4ohm off a deck or amp unless it specifically states it can handle it, it's an easy way to over heat it.

Factory radios are designed to run into the ground so the customer doesn't come back with bs issues, so it may play for a while even if the setup is wrong. I've seen a mazda head unit come back to life after someone's kid filled the cassette slot with change from the cup holder.

 

OK, I dont mean to start a 3 unit course on the electrical engineering of 12v car audio, BUT...
I know @Shifty has a resume of car audio in his past as well and he has referenced the 3ohm universe more than a few times here AND in particular, JBL. Looking at the hundred or so offerings of speaker systems offered for our FGTs, I think JBL and maybe one other are the only ones in the 3ohm arena.
Why is that?
Looks to me that not many manufacturers want to accomodate the market for low power HUs that most of the auto industry chooses as stock equipment?
Seems to me that theyre [aftermarket audio] banking on likelihood an owner scrapping entire OEM system and rebuilding w/modern HU & speaks, coupled to external amp...[sell more gear].

@StellarBlue, it makes some sense not to attempt to drive hi-power rated speaks w/a low power HU [like the Toyota OEM in our FGTs]; if one were to do so, I suppose you would have to set or manage a user volume/time limit [impractical] on the HU to keep from overheating it?
Like I said, not too worried about overcooking my OEM radio since itll soon be history anyway...

While Im on the topic, I stopped to look closely at the JL Audio 'C1-650'; [I have their marine products and theyve proved to be robust w/good performance for basically an outdoor speak] Their tweeter is one of the few Ive seen with the center screw hole mount similar to our OEM tweets. Scanning futher into the downloadable User Manual, they 'advise' against what appears to be a very common multi-speaker door configuration of the car industry:

Seems totally impractical for FGT door panels [or any factory config'd car door], but I suppose it could be done.
Any real world evidence that the audio result is notable, better, F'n awesome...etc, looks to me its just aimed at peeps that do complete re-configs ?

 

No sweat. I just arrived on the forum, so I'm just offering my experience from a million years ago, someone like @shifty` and others have seen and advised on hundreds of this specific truck with all types of configurations, so I'd defer to them for nuanced 1st gen tundra applications.

I can only guess as to why the aftermarket industry doesn't offer 1:1 oem replacement, and it's likely just due to cost. They're not going to make and stock every possible variant from numerous manufacturers. The car companies work with whatever speaker mfg and dial it in to the mm of just enough to work because they're making millions of the vehicles. 3ohm speaker is 30 cents cheaper and the deck to run it doesn't need the 45 cent mosfet? Ship it.

Individial channel (front left/front right etc) Speaker placement is ideally closer together, but the high frequency gets lost lower in the door. The car is a terrible environment for a sound stage, front driver is way closer than rear passenger etc. That's why you see alpine etc using time correction to delay the closer speakers and center the stage.

An Alpine deck and a set of 40-50watt speakers will work fine. The sound will be better than stock and it's underpowered, but mild enough to run without killing the equipment. After that it's just how much money you want to dump into it.

 

IIRC, I did so for roughly a year. No issues. Sold my old OEM amp and head unit to another member in California who is still using it, to this day, 2-3 years later?

I want to say JBL was one of the first manufacturers to start doing this in the car audio world, and since then, other companies like Infinity have followed suit. If it was dangerous, and risked blowig things up, I seriously doubt it would be persisting the way it is.

There's a pretty substantial leap in load from 3Ω -> 2Ω, Far more significant than from 4Ω -> 3Ω. I wouldn't dare run 2Ω on factory head unit. But, like, back in the day, I'd even run 6Ω on home amps that claimed 8Ω; similar load change.

I dunno, YMMV, but I wouldn't hesitate to do this after my experience. You're not adding load to the head unit in most cases, I suspect more than 75% of AC drivers specifically have either the in-dash or under-seat Fujitsu or JBL amp.

 

@Shifty it does stand to reason that JBL wouldnt market a 3ohm sys if it was close to causing damage issues. Like I said, didnt want to review all thats been previously dissected about 3 v. 4ohm, but its new unknowns for me.
I have considered the JBL products since theyve been around a while and Toyota wouldnt subcontract to unproven systems. Having said that, yes Im probly a Fujitsu amp and it still works w/19yr old speakers. So, not gonna rule out JBL or a 3ohm system.

BTW: Any merit to matching up a particular manufacturers HU w/their speaks? Im specifically referring to Alpine, but really any other builder too.

Also, is the JL Audio C1-650 tweeter with the center screw for mounting, mainly a convenience and not make any difference in SQ [i think so]?

Way to go @StellarBlue for your 1st halfdozen posts! Welcome to the forum.
Between you & @Shifty [and a handful of others], not much in 12v Car audio goes unanswered around here.

 

No value in matching manufacturers in the way you're mentioning.

I'm saying use any driver with a tweeter that has a center mounting hole, or a bracket with center-mount to improve ease of install. Granted, if the opening is ripe, you can also do what @knabores did, and simply install the manufacturer's bucket (... most manuf'ers give you 2-3 mounting solutions for component tweeters, they virtually always include (at least) a 'bucket' that fits a specific hole size, and lets you pivot the speaker around to adjust the sound stage, OR a bucket that's static/no movement, AND some other form of mount. On my JBL Club components they offered up all three.

I can't tell if the JL C1 6.5 kit tweeters have their holes threaded. This is the only pic I could find online, I can see there's a hole, I can't tell if it's threaded or not.

On the 3vs4 topic, dont' gotta take my word for it, there's plenty of info out there, stuff like this ...

https://www.reddit.com/r/CarAV/comments/13o49ja/is_my_4ohm_head_unit_compatible_with_3_ohm/

https://www.reddit.com/r/CarAV/comments/ym5njk/running_3_ohm_speakers_off_a_4_ohm_rated_head_unit/

But let's be real, impedance changes with frequency. Does starting at a baseline of 3 ohms make that much of a difference? Is it possible the 3 ohm thing is just a gimmick? I have yet to see people smarter than me test that, but I'd be interested to watch.

Note: I'm not an EE.

 

Yeah, thanks @shifty`...
Had a feeling end SQ of matched manufacturer systems probly only matters in more complex designs costing waay more than Im willing to spend. Probly no comprehensive answer there.

After extended browsing the C-field array of component choices for FGTs, comes the install advisory- "Tweeter: Surface mount only".
I'm gonna interpret this to mean that you could try make it fit the old tweeter location, but good possibilty it will not fit or if it does, it will require panel/hardware mods. Apparently the only limitation I see is tweet hole and depth sizes. IDK.

Likewise, regarding my particular interest at this point anyway, the JL product [C1-650] install dwg's, they supply threaded studs to fasten the tweeter via a tapped center hole to a 'spring-clip' which likely only works as surface mount. However, per their dwg's, appears their ctr hole is threaded for the supplied M4 studs. Ive measured our tweeter hole @ 40mm [1.6"] and depth between oem metal bracket to edge of inside surface of tweeter hole as 22mm deep clearance [.88"]. Im thinking a marine board strip or even metal backstrap will work. [eventho C-field says 'Tweeter: Surface mount only'.]
Believe C-field or the manufacturers' OManual w/dwg detail? IDK.

 

That's super common for our trucks. Crutchfield will list incompatibility or "requires straps to install", as was the case with my components, but clearly, if something is center-post threaded, it's not a problem, because you have an OEM steel bracket you can repurpose, and essentially replicate the OEM installation using an aftermarket component.

Correct!

I doubt it. I'd need to see it. Let's see ... PDf manual is here: https://embed.widencdn.net/pdf/plus/jlaudio/i74qdmu0ed/C1-650_MAN.pdf?u=ndijqi

Here's the pertinent part of that doc:

​

Clearly, the post can thread into the back of the tweeter. If you want to use that to surface mount, they give you that W-shaped tension clip, and clearly it spreads as you tighten the outside nut (nearest the B) down to the other nut and lock it down. **IF** you choose to use it as surface-mount. Which you can. Nothing wrong with that!

If you wanted to be more discrete with your install and keep the color-matched OEM trim, what you would do is essentially this, where the factory bracket would replace the W-shaped bracket. Make sense? I would probably toss a little blue loctite on the threaded post where it goes into the tweeter, to ensure it doesn't vibrate or rattle out.

Sure, but stop thinking inside the box.

You could literally go to ACE Hardware, and buy an M4 bolt that's 60mm or so in length, and use that to bolt the tweeter directly to the OEM bracket as shown in that link.

I'm failing to understand the hang-up here?

Understand something: Crutchfield has a reputation to manage. Most people aren't like "us". They want to screw a speaker onto something. They don't want to go to ACE Hardware to get a simple bolt. If you tell a lot of people "M4 thread", they're going to thinking you're talking about the traction band on a tank or some stupid shit.

tl;dr - You're overthinking this. Stop overthinking.

 

ha~ha...i think you meant an M1 Abrams, but ok, whatever...but your 1st two statements are fairly obvious already and just seeking some confirmation of what ive seen and read...

Nope, just thinking it thru PRE-PURCHASE..., but I have no misuderstanding about C-field management, if it isnt clearly assessed as PlugNplay, they're gonna CYA their database, of course; that what makes them so...C-field!...as in Sell this shit: "get them to sign on the line that is dotted"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2hQaD0nbLc

and no, an M4 screw isnt a challenge, rather just info illustrating the tweeter is threaded on backside, making install even easier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTIm0D2A5o8

Thinking inside the box [or inside thedoor panel] is exactly what Im after; I dont want to change any cab interior, so im naturally focused on the 'stealth' tweeter install. [and no, not the B-2 or F-117 or...]
...but thx for the input anyways...

 

Warning: Continuation of my 'over-thinking' ahead.

Spent about an hour in 2 separate car audio independant shops, listening to a couple HUs and several speaker system boards.
Gonna definitely agree w/ @ATBAV8 in #8 above: "Everyonehas a differing opinion because everyone hears sounddifferently."
But i'll go a step further:
Listening from a display Alpine HU [ilx509?], w/out an external amp, to usb files fr/my phone via BT and listened to about 5 different 6" brands [2 JL, 2 Infiniti, 1 RFosgate and all in $200-450 segment]; 3 were component sets [Mid and separate tweet] and 2 were straight 2 way coaxials.
After playing files in 'flat' EQ profile on all 5, then changing EQ settings to my preference and replaying same files, the 2 way Co-ax's ruled.. Again, better being a relative term, but if I HAD to choose in that moment, I definitely would have gone w/ 2-way Co-Ax's over component sets.
So, to my ear, I cant conclude that a 'component' system has a decided benefit in these FGT interiors.
Unless Im missing something here, the 2way Coaxials ruled [for my ears].

Side story: Later, I moved over to the 'next tier' of products in the same style 6" component system board, except this board was all "Hertz". I think $500 to $1000 +/- ; all driven by a Kenwood DMX958XR w/Kenwood Ext amp [model?].
Odd thing about this was that after listening to same files via BT [in both Flat & EQ'd settings], these speak systems did sound better, but not overwhelmingly so, which surprised me since were driven by an external amp [vs no external of earlier board]. IE: I could be just as happy with the top $400 product of the 2way Coaxial's I tried earlier [and no external amp].

 

The benefit is "thoguhtful staging", ultimately. Highs benefit from a clear, unimpeded path to the ear to hit you with the highest highs, and the only way that's going to happen is if it's high up in the cabin, i.e. on the A-pillar, on the dash reflecting off the windshield to hit the listener, in the sail painel (triangle at the mirror like DC have), or in the upper door (like AC/RC have).

A lot of people will tell you, rightly so - and this is oversimplifying a bit, but still - highs are directional, bass is non-directional. If you have a passenger, and the tweeter that's center-mounted on the lower half of the door, their leg is going to block all those upper-range frequencies, it's just going to bounce right back at the door, destroying any semblance of soundstage. That's not to say we AC/RC guys have that great of a soundstage as it is compared to DC, but that's also part of the problem: You're taking an already sub-par soundstage having the tweeter in the upper door, and totally fucking yourself putting it in the lower part.

Coaxials have their place. For me, that was in the rear, I personally DGAF what anyone hears back there, but I do want some directional mid/treble fill behind me, and there's only one speaker opening to work with, so a coaxial is the perfect fit.

Frankly, it's less about the equipment and more about the soundstage. If you were in front of the typical "wall of sound" many shops setup, chances are, the staging is wildly different from what you'd experience with those same speakers in a car.

But the lack of crazy difference is why you will, in digging back through my posts here, constantly see me say:

• JBL is exceptional bang vs. buck
• JBL has highly accurate sound reproduction, often with some warmth, good range, and fairly solid power handling
• There's a reason you'll want into concerts and clubs around the world and find they're running JBL drivers ... ever walk into a concert venue and see Sony, Infinity, JL, Alpine, or Pioneer speakers? Or any of the fancy car audio brands? I haven't.

That was primarily what we sold at the shop I worked at. JBL amps, components, subs. JL subs and amps. And were usually pushing people toward Eclipse, Nakamichi, Clarion, Alpine for head units.

I'm not trying to sell anyone on hardware, only sharing experience here and (hopefully) making you stop and think more about something you'lve probably already thought exhaustively about.

There's always been high-end brands. MB Quart and A/D/S were two of those in IASCA bitd where, if you didn't have them, you kinda got laughed at. But we were crushing the same people sneering at our stuff because our setups were superior, we had way more money to spend on things because we weren't dropping 3x as much on speakers. Quality amp-to-speaker pairing will win over component quality every time, and some people just couldn't get that through their heads.

I'll also tell you, some people treat this stuff as religion. I've seen some really heated arguments happen over a few of the topics I just touched on. Very strong opinions.

 

As @shifty` has said, I do really enjoy the "thoughtful staging" in the component system in my AC front doors. I have 6 1/2" 2-way coaxials in the rear doors, and probably due to the way the sound moves around in the AC cab, the 6 1/2" coaxials really compliment the components in the front doors. Again, I prefer accuracy and clarity, and I believe the components do a nice job of taking care of the mids and lows without muddiness.

 

Thanks for the info...
Makes some sense on component placement, but in FGTs, that Mid is feeding to or around the calf as well...but ok, not ruling out a component sys. altogether.
Uh, I wouldnt call the interior of this shop a 'sound-stage', but its miles ahead of BBy..and yes, I factored that the sound board displays lack the enclosed acoustics of a vehicle cabin. Just guessing installed end producs result will be better in vehicle than sound board.
BUT, I gotta say my impression of the 'component systems' compared to the Co-Ax's, [ignoring the lack of an enclosed chamber in store], components ALL seemed too 'bright' or hi-frequency loud, if that makes sense.

Since Im going external amp-less, Im less interested in projecting hi-frequency and more interested in the Mid and Bass projection and SQ, not necessarily loud [im old]. Anyway, willing to spend up a bit for quality I wont see until HU replacement or until caving-in and joining the E Amp universe.
For now, while door panels are all off, wanna distill it down to a speak sys I can be sure I wont need to upgrade once I re-place panels in next 2-3 weeks, whether Component Frt's and CoAxials Rr.

From where I stand, I can see its a very competitive arena- probly small margins for the small shops. Might explain why these 'indie-shops' wont even place model# labels under the items on the display boards [let alone prices]; it feels like theyre hoping customer arrives and says " Ok. 1 from Coumn A and 4 from Column B- how much and how long will it take?".
I guess I should be thankful the display boards function with actual HUs [BBy is a joke].

Hey last time I attended a live venue was theopen air half shell on San Diego Bay [kind of emulates the iconic Sydney Harbor Half-shell]...but was so far back I didnt have bino's to see the brand of gear on stage...nor was I in any shape to memorize it. Buddy Guy concert.

Anyways, Im far fr/religious, but I am still enjoying my auditory senses enough to know good quality music repro in a car is not a random event. Hell, just this last week I starting to re-assess my original budget of $1k [probly not for quality speaks and HU]. After handling the 7" displays a good amount of time, I now cleary see the value of a 9" HU....

 

Sounds to me like you're going to buy quality, whatever it is...Once installed the fun starts with tweaking it to sound exactly how you want it to sound, and what fits your ears/listening area best.

 

I mean, ultimately, the reality is, you're not going to get peak sound without throwing a DSP and, ideally, an external amp into the mix. But a proper DSP will singlehandedly be the biggest gamechanger in any system.

 

ok @Shifty, understand the DSP philosphy, but not for me.
I cant warrant that much time and added expense for my drive purposes. Also, trying to keep cost down and install simple; if anything, Id be more inclined to apply additional DSP $ to my HU cost, for an 8 or 9"....but, back on a speaker topic:

I've looked at the JBL Club series and am feeling like going to the JBL Club 64CSQ component front and the same JBL Mid solo for rear, all driven w/out an external amp, but a 18-22 watt HU.
JBL Club 64CSQ seems to be a good future-proof level, if I were to add ExtAmp down the road. Your thots?
Gonna go see if I can put the ear to a sound board with them somewhere.

 

Trying to, but as I review the nuances of both HU & Speaks, im finding the bottom line keeps rising, or as I drive down the car audio rabbit hole.

 

Nature of the beast...

Great choice, it's what I'd go with if I had to do it all over again tomorrow.

I'd probably go with the 64SQ in the rear (coaxial vs. component) if I had to do it all over tomorrow.

Yeah, so ... if you go by the mindset that the RMS output of your amp source should be equal to or greater than the RMS of your speaker for ideal sound, then things aren't going to blow your mind with the HU's integrated amp. If you really want to pair out that way, and you were intending to stick with no external amp, you may want to bump down to components with a lower RMS if that's your thought, and JBL's "Concert" series is in that wheelhouse.

I can tell you, my ilx-w770 is currently pushing my JBL Club 6500C which are listed as up to 60w RMS. And it sounds perfectly fine. No distortion up to ~2/3 volume. I have zero complaints. As with all things, what you're told is "ideal" and key phrases on RMS values on speakers like "UP TO" are phrased the way they are intentionally, and there are so many other factors that contribute to that, like impedance and sensitivity.