Water heater and well questions

I'm pretty handy around the house but have always stayed away from anything with plumbing and electric. So my experience is limited to talking points instead of tacit knowledge. 4 years ago we moved to a property that's on a well system. We had the water tested and as far as anything bad the water came back super clean but was very hard. Got a quote to install a water softener but didn't want to invest over 12k at the time.

Now, we are seeing sediment/particulate coming into the house faucets and appliances. It junked up my cold water line into the washing machine as well as one of the bathroom faucets. I was able to pull the screens out of the washer and clean them and now seems like everything is fine again. However, my plumber thinks that my well expansion tank is also junked up with sediment and we're really only holding a portion of water inside the tank due to the sediment taking up space in the tank itself. We did drain the tank yesterday and right before it was empty the water coming out was quite black. To add $$$ to this problem my tankless water heater also has a tiny pinhole leak in one of the copper pipes within the heat exchanger. He also said that he recommends replacing that unit with a lowboy water heater.

After he left I did some internet sleuthing and did find that propane and N/G tankless heaters do loose some efficiency at elevation (I live at 8970). However, I'm concerned with putting a water heater in there to replace it because it's installed under my house, which was built in 1965 and isn't up to todays code standards. My home's crawl space is basically just 2x4 framed in with metal sheeting on the outside and some insulation on the inside. Where the water heater would be installed is only 49" from ground to max height. My concern would be that it gets really cold in the long winters we have and don't know how hard this would be on a water heater. As well as the fact that I live with 2 teenage girls who love to take long showers no matter how blue in the face I become. I've currently been cleaning the tankless water heaters screen quarterly that also gets junked up with sediment. And currently there are no clean out attachments for me to flush the tankless water heaters heat exchanger so I imagine that the pipe bust due to the calcium build up within it. So at the very least I'd like to have him install some so I could perform the necessary maintenance on a tankless if that's what I replace it with.

So after that long ass diatribe, my questions here are:

1) should I be concerned about the lowboy water heater being basically installed outside the home? Will it function properly over the expected lifespan?

2) is it possible to just have the copper pipe in the heat exchanger brazed/ repaired to keep this one going?

3) ditch his recommendation and just replace with another tankless?

4) what types of filter(s) should I be looking at to help prevent all the particulate coming back into my tank, and eventually my appliances.

Extra notes: Logically my mind says I should have a pre filter between the well pump and the expansion tank, as well as a filter after the expansion tank and before the water heater. But due to my lack of knowledge would this effect the well pumps ability to fill the tank efficiently? Right now I'm just looking at sediment filters to get the particulate out of the whole house. Still not really interested in a softener system but I may need one?

thanks in advance for the helpful insight any of you plumbers and water guys can help provide...

 

If you install a sediment filter, you need to check and maintain it often. How often depends on how much sediment it is collecting. Is there anywhere in the house to put the are heater? Or in a garage? I would think the crawlspace environment would be hard on an appliance unless the crawlspace is fully encapsulated. If it is, another tankless is an obvious solution as you know it was working there before. A water softener would need to be plumbed in before the house supply hits the first faucet or appliance for maximum effectiveness. Sediment filter could be before or after the tank. Before would prevent the tank accumulation.

 

Thanks for the reply @KNABORES this experience has taught me a lot about what I should be doing to maintain this well system. I'm leaning tankless for the same reasons you stated. It was there before and never had any maintenance on it for 10 years. If I flushed it regularly I don't think it would need replacing right now. Add a sediment filter to the system and I'm think I'm good to help prevent any more appliance or faucet issues.

I'll be regularly draining the well tank using the purge valve to flush the sediment out as well. I also wondering if I drain it multiple times over the course of this week if that would flush and clean out the sediment in it now. I would hate adding to the land fill if I could avoid it. Haha.

 

How hard is your water? More than 7 grains per gallon? You may need to use both a filter system & a softener. Figure out the cost of a softener & supplies vs the replacement costs of a filter system & your appliances that use water. Or get really good at plumbing.
In my area, it’s not practical to use a tankless water heater. I use gallons of white vinegar to keep things clean where the hard water deposits build up. I pour 2 cups of water in the rinse cycle of my washer to keep the hard water particles from showing up on clothes.

 

I'll have to dig up my last testing results to show how hard it is. But that's good advice on how to define cost of adding softener vs appliances getting trashed.

edit: can't explain enough how mad my wife gets about the water stains on laundry. Never even though about adding vinegar to the rinse cycle. Thanks again.

 

And to circle back to you @KNABORES no, there really isn't another place inside the house I can put a water heater. Unless I turn one of my bathrooms into a utility closet. I live in an a frame 1500 square ft. 3 bed 3 bath. No garage but I do have sheds that I built to store all my toys. 2 teen girls, wife, 2 dogs and a cat. It's small but we're more interested in the land it has.

 

sounds like paradise

 

it's not bad.

 

My buddies tankless water heaters are mounted on the outside wall of his house.

 

It works, but vinegar is acidic. It will eat the gasket of a front loading washer.

I would never have a tankless water heater on well water with normal mineral content.

I betting your physical deposits are coming from the tankless WH.

You need a softener before your water heater to remove much of the calcium and magnesium. There are salt blends that will help with the iron that is staining the clothes.

 

This sounds so familiar. We had a vacation home A frame for some years. They are the best for shedding snow, but the worst for storage.

Our stubby electric non tankless water heater was in the crawl space. It was fine. Just make sure your access door is as big as the water heater. Electric Water heaters are good for 20 years, more if you drain the sediment regular.

 

Also good advice. As much as I don't want to pay the piper the softener may just be my long term solution. I can't seem to dig up last years water tests but do you the think if I didn't add a softener the hard water would have damaging effects on a traditional water heater as well?

 

Plumb your own softener in. Lower end units can be had for hundreds, higher end around $1500. Shut the water off Find a good location in the crawlspace, cut the pipe and use sharkbites and pex to build your softener setup and hook it up inline. The days of sweating pipe is over.

 

i just replaced my water softener last night. Must be a pretty fancy water softener they quoted you for 12k. i know there are substantial plumbing costs there if you are not comfortable with DIY but you can get a decent softener for around $600 for a family of 4 or 5. unless they were suggesting a saltless system, some of these push closer to 1800 on the high end.

Test strips are cheap on Amazon if you need to retest. I would put a whole house water filter in before the tank and get a softener in there somewhere after. I don't think a second filter after the tank is necessary, just keep up with the first. Waterboss 700 is a good (albeit small salt capacity) softener that can fit in a small area, stay away from the 900. A unit like that you have to keep more of an eye on the salt level as you can only fit a little over a single 40 lb bag. I would personally not run a water heater in a crawlspace unless it stays above freezing and has a little bit of airflow, it will just have to run harder in a harsher climate potentially racking up energy costs.

Side note, if you buy a small unit like a water boss have them ship to store and use a store like ace hardware, true value, do it best. since the unit isn't big a lot of delivery drivers will try to move the unit around themselves or stack them incorrectly in a delivery truck and the top can get smashed along with the controls.

a unit with more salt capacity keeps you from having to check it all the time but you need to have the space for where your plumbing needs are. Get it in line before the first faucet or water heater etc. Side note. always plumb outdoor lines before the softener. Watering plants with soft water isn't great for them.

a water softener will typically pay for itself many times over with less replacement of washing machines, water heaters, cleaning or replacing facets and showerheads etc. typical life rom a basic water softener is 10-15 years around the 10 mark you may need to refill resin depending on water hardness but on most softeners its more practical to just replace the unit.

 

Many people don't run a softener with hard water.

You need to just do twice a year talk drains to get the sediment out.

The life span of a traditional water heater will be reduced, but not dramatically.

 

Haha. When we moved in there were zero closets in the house. I've since custom built closets and shelving for every bedroom and an area I converted into a foyer.

 

As knabores said, put in your own softener. I’m in VA on city water, I put in 2 big blue filters, sediment and charcoal, before a softener I also added I change the filters every 6 months, they’re brown when I change them. Got the filters and housings and softener off Amazon. Easy install, I sweated the pipes, but shark bite works good too.

 

yeah, when I looked at their quote I didn't even think about it and crumpled it up and tossed it. I thought there are so many more things I'd rather throw 12k at. Good advice from both you and @KNABORES on looking into a diy addition of a softener.

 

Softener or not, maintenance seems to be key in keeping my well tank and water heater free from sediment in the future.

can't thank you guys (and gal) enough for the sound advice so far. Looks like I'll be learning myself up on some plumbing skills...

 

Alright so it's been almost a week and after analyzing my trusted plumber's assessment of my well system and it's major parts I've made the decision to tackle this project on my own. Basically it came down to his bid. It's time I learn some new skills to save ten's of thousands of dollars; not only on this project but any more that arise in the future. This will include a complete overhaul of a 12-20 year old system and adding a 2 stage whole house filter between the well pump and the well pressure tank. Wish me luck. Parts start arriving within days...

 

Nice. You got this.

 

My buddy came over yesterday with all his plumbing tolls and we installed

new back pressure valve where the well enters the crawl space

new pex plumbing that up leads to a 3 stage water filtration system. The first is a cleanable 50 micron spin down filter and then an I spring 2 stage 5 micron sediment and carbon whole house filter system.

Cut off valves to the filters so I can easily change them as necessary

a new well pressure tank, pressure switch, tank t, pressure gauge, pressure relief valve, and cut off valves.

New pex plumbing coming off the filtration system to the tank.

I then ran a segment of heat tape and foam insulation over all the new plumbing lines from the well pump lead in to the back of the tankless water heater.

I learned a lot and now I feel like I could easily do this job on my own. Best part is that now I have the excuse to buy some new tools to make adjustments and repairs to anything in the future.

still waiting on my new tankless water heater to be shipped. You know, more first world problems.

And now photos...