Gun Flagging

I recently went to a "tactical rifle" class, and wanted some opinions on the instructor's attitude. Dude was apparently in SWAT for a long time, did instructing, got all the awards, the whole 9 yards. During some of the instructing demos, he would clear the gun, have another instructor verify the gun was cleared, and then would often point his gun at students to demonstrate things.

For example, one of them was fire a couple shots, and keep the trigger to the rear and how in his SWAT career they would do this because they might not be able to activate the safety and might rush someone and bop them with the muzzle and with the trigger staying to the rear there was no way to accidentally fire another round and could still manipulate the target with the end of the barrel. Sure, I follow all of that--but then quick demonstration of using his gun to push on someone.

Likewise the reverse would happen (at least once) at the very beginning, get your shooting stance, you should be able to push against someone, blah blah blah. And then the instructors would walk to each student and push on the muzzle of their gun. Again, all weapons cleared and double checked by other instructors, bolts locked back.

The main dude's reasoning was, in the real world you may have to flag people, and granted we will be safe and only do it when "we know the guns are empty" but we will do it in demonstrations as needed.

But that still rubbed me the wrong way, I understand his point, but that didn't seem like justification to do it during demonstrations. Yes, flagging might be inevitable for a situation, but I feel like you should still go to lengths to avoid that the other 99.9% of the time. Don't make it seem like an allowable thing "just because it MIGHT be needed someday".

I've now taken a couple rifle (and pistol) classes, and had informal instruction from friends/associates who were/are military/SWAT/contractors and no one has ever been like "today we're flagging people because someday you might!" And there were two other instructors there too, and this was a big gun range and they were all "certified" and one of the instructors did competitions, and they all seemed unphased by this behavior.

The dude seemed cool and seemed to know his shit, I'd like to take his more advanced classes, but is this a red flag or is this how some instructors are and I'm just naive and should accept it in a training scenario? It's just been on my mind a lot, and hard to find information on if this would be normal for this kind of situation.

@ColoradoTJ

 

Never seen/ heard of it. Don't like it. Goes against rule 1 - only point the muzzle at something you intend on shooting.

Butt / stock has more surface area to engage and "move" a combatant/prisoner and less chance of the muzzle slipping and going where it shouldn't.

As for engaging a teammate, absolutely not. That has Friendly written all over that "technique". Maintain cheek weld, eyes on your sight and surroundings/target/beyond target. Use your fore grip hand to make contact/communicate with teammate. If I can't engage my safety that efficiently or quickly, it's because my thumb was shot off and I have bigger problems.

Overall if it's an otherwise good course, enjoy it, learn from it, and just use what you are comfortable using.

 

um yeah no thanks

 

In the real world when doors get kicked down and people go every which way into a room yes flagging is going to happen. It's not something people accept and anticipate but incidental to working in a chaotic environment with firearms. Risk mitigated with trigger discipline and trying to dip the muzzle down as much as possible when crossing paths with friendlies. But it is something you avoid wherever possible, not accepted and normal. There is no legitimate reason to do it in a training class.

None
Zero
NADA

This isn't some wacky SPETSNAZ live fire trust building range session for snake eaters. Just a training session.

A few years ago by me it made the news when a LEO instructor displaying a new issue pistol's trigger pull away from the line in a class room or cleaning room shot a student because he slipped up and did not clear the pistol. Had a brain fart, Did not rack the slide and demo'd the trigger pointing at someone's chest. I see no legitimate reason whatsoever for an instructor to intentionally flag students or flag a class during simple verbal instruction on a range or in a classroom. If it happened to me I'd leave immediately and demand a refund.

Was this a class of civilians or a LEO teaching LEOs? Sounds like it was the former and nobody had the confidence to know there was no legit reason to sit through something like that. If he was teaching a class of people with time in doing any of this it probably would have turned into a bunch of empty chairs fast.

Lots of bad knowledge out there behind impressive credentials.

 

I am on the fence with this as well. Now, had you said you were in law enforcement or military while some may disagree, I say you should def train for it as this could be a possible method used real life. Just like training for an MMA fight, you need to train all aspects in order to be proficient in all aspects. Not sure a regular civilian should be training for methods such as "flagging". Again, on the fence with this one. I know I didn't answer your question. My .02

 

Do any of the following pictures resemble the "instructor" you speak of?


I feel like you are already smarter and know more about guns than whoever this person was.

Keep your booger hook of the bang switch, and don't point guns at people.

Good job.

 

I have strong feelings about instructors that consider themselves "above the rules".

I get it.

but it ain't the real world*.

teach me to:
shoot accurately
shoot consistently
shoot safely
perform well under duress
perform the drills that build neural pathways to protect myself & family.

all that other shit is...well....shit.

I'm a bit prejudiced as we have decent, civilized training courses at our private range.
https://www.pscshootingclub.com/



and don't get me started on the folks that dress up like fat swat guys to take these courses.




*real world situations are fast, scary & dangerous. avoid them until you can't avoid them.

 

Appreciate the response, you echoed my thoughts.

It almost felt like gimmicky to make it seem more intense-- "in the real world flagging happens" and "this is TACTICAL drills we're doing". Cool dude, I just came here to learn how to shoot better and not sure why a gun should be pointed at a person for you to demonstrate anything, if you need to do that go buy a plastic dumby to show on.

 

In multiple aspects of training, curriculum, seat time and live movement; this was never a thing. Take the good from the class, be comfortable, and use a different instructor in the future.

 

Burns me up to hear this. Impossible to tell how many in that class smelled BS and how many walked away taking that garbage to heart who will now embrace a more casual attitude towards muzzle discipline because an Ex SWAT instructor told them it's no big deal.

 

This is why I'm so skeptical of any class. I'm a card carrying member of USCCA and have been for years. We had an instructor come out to our house to assess our home then discuss home invasion tactics/strategies. I like the plethora of classes and instructors offered through them and would use them again.

 

My favorite guys to listen to on this stuff are ones who've been down range and the first thing they tell you is gun fights are scary, they don't want to die, and answering for shooting people sucks. So here's a list of things you can do to try to avoid it. Exhaust those options first. But if all that fails well then here's what you do.

 

This is why the "prop blue guns" exist. Negligent discharges happen because people get too comfortable with guns and stop following basic safety rules.

Disappointed an instructor would do that no matter how many checks they did to ensure the weapon was clear.

 

Apparently these guys train ppl like they act in the heat of the moment - flagging the friendlies. Ask the crew of Rust about the subject and I wonder what you'd hear?

 

Nothing like a good Desk Pop!!!!

 

I'd guess part of this process his he's marketing his training 'experience' hoping you'll remember it as standing out from any other class you've been in and tell your friends about the high speed SWAT guy who gave you a take you never heard anywhere else.

A lot of these guys lean heavily on that, putting a twist on things that makes them stand out from the crowd even if it's not particularly useful or good training. People who don't know any better spread the word about how different it is from everything else they sat through. There's lots of gimmicky training out there and lots of trainers who joined units just to get the training and the resume padder, put the minimum time in then went off to make money off it.

 

Bad. Simple...bad. he should be called out and walked out on.

 

This. Every single person I've ever known who's taught a class - and every single person I've ever known who's actually been IN firefights, had to shoot someone, etc., has said the same thing - you NEVER point any gun at anything unless you're prepared to shoot.

I bring up the whole firefight thing because it seems like this instructor was trying to stand out and be somewhat tacticool™® and all that.

That'd be the first and last time I went to see that instructor.

 

Hard pass. I wouldn't go back. If everyone did this there would be NDs, injury and deaths. It becomes a probability game.

Also, I call the idea of keeping the trigger pulled to avoid the reset being "safe" as total BS. One stiff jolt, that trigger will reset and that gun is discharging faster than the person can react. Also, it would teach horrible muscle memory. Squeeze the trigger = safe? No way.

Trigger discipline is more important than a mechanical safety.

 

strong this

 

Rule #1 of the 4 primary rules for firearm safety is always keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction. It really is the most basic principle of all. Rule #2 is treat all guns as if they are loaded. So by ignoring rule 1 you are by default breaking rule #2 lol. Worst instructor ever.

 

I just want to make it clear, that just being a “SWAT Operator” and previous or current instructor means nothing and should not automatically give anyone unearned respect or validity.

There is a reason blue guns and/or Simunitions are used during force on force scenarios where a firearm is to be pointed at another individual.

 

also if you ever shoot matches whether it's USPSA, PRS or 3-Gun. they're the first ones to get their asses kicked and/or ND

 

Not pointing your muzzle at anything you’re not willing to “destroy” is a fundamental gun range safety rule hahahah.

 

Still can't get over holding the trigger down and trusting the reset as a "safety".

 

Can’t really add to what’s already been said but I wouldn’t go back to this guy. His credentials may be impressive but his lack of respect for the basic rules of gun safety is moronic - no matter how many times it has been checked and how many people have verified its safety.