Lower ball joints gone bad in 37k mi and mystery noise

I had my lower control arms and LBJs replaced 4 years ago at 142k mi. Today I'm at 179k and I am hearing this god awful noise (almost exactly like in this video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aHLiMs5N0tg) coming from what seems to be the passenger side front suspension (just got a stethoscope that I will use to try to pin down the source of the noise later today). This noise occurs when moving the steering wheel in either direction and happens whether moving or parked.

Also worth noting, this exact same noise has occured before, like a year ago, and at the time I thought it was due to a tear in the rubber boot (the one connected to the steering rack and the inner tie rod) being ripped and allowing dirt/sand into the ball joint on the inner tie rod. I cleaned and greased that dirty tie rod joint, replaced the torn boot, and the noise went away shortly thereafter. Now the noise came back 2 days ago and so yesterday I replaced both inner and outer tie rods, left and right side, and the noise is still there!!! So I can only imagine that it was coincidence that the noise went away that first time right after doing the clean and regrease.

Back to the ball joints: I started by jacking up both sides by the LCA and using a pry bar to lift the wheels. I do see the knuckle moving maybe a few mm away from the LCA when I do this. However when rocking the wheel with hands at 12 and 6 o clock I don't feel hardly any movement. This makes me think the LBJs are on their way out but maybe not totally kaput just yet. I am just a bit confused as to how they went bad so fast. Any ideas? Could it be that the upper ball joints have been bad ever since the LCA and LBJs were replaced at 142k, and contributed to premature wear of the LBJs?

 

Aftermarket ball joints on these trucks are known to last about 5,000 miles.

 

Yeah, I am doing some research into what exactly the shop used for LBJs and it seems like it's an oreilly house brand part that may or may not be manufactured by Mevotech. Wish I knew better and forced them to use OEM at the time.

 

So I listened with a stethoscope at various places while a buddy turned the wheel. I think the awful groaning is come from the passenger side LBJ. It has about the same amount of vertical play as the driver side one, so probably time to just replace both, maybe the left side is just better lubricated still and that's why it's more quiet...

So since I did the tie rods yesterday, I took it to a shop this morning for an alignment. I told them about the groaning noise too and said bonus points if you can figure out where it's coming from.

They say that yes the LBJs and UBJs need to be replaced, but also the sway bar end links are bad and are probably the source of the noise. I don't see how that can be the case since the noise occurs when moving the wheel while parked, and in that situation the sway bar shouldn't be moving, or am I wrong?

 

Update, the shop wants to use moog LBJs because they are serviceable with the grease fitting, whereas the OEM are not. I talked to a more senior guy there about the sway bar end links and why I don't think that's the source of the noise, he agreed and said they should be replaced due to the age and the likelihood of them braking when doing the LBJs. Does anyone have experience with their end links braking when doing LBJs, because I am not sure why mine would - they are rust free.

I know everyone here tends to recommend OEM, but are the moog that bad if serviced with fresh lubricant every 5k or so?

Also, has anyone heard a noise like that when their LBJs are going bad?

 

Yes, they are that bad. It's not the greasable aspect, the OEM have a cup that goes farther around the ball. Most ball joints are under compression so the cup isn't structural, but ours are under tension so they pull apart.

 

Go OEM LBJ - buy the recall kit and save $90 - Ball Joint Kit Lower Ball - Toyota (04006-62134)

 

DO NOT USE MOOG. GO OEM!

 

Thanks, I think I'll stick with the advice from the forum. The guy was all "the internet says lots of things" when I told him about all the people here who swear by OEM LBJs and advice against anything aftermarket, but he was convinced the OEM is inferior since it's not serviceable.

Probably gonna just do the replacement myself too in that case.

Oh, and I just watched the video on LBJ replacement and you don't need to disconnect the sway bar - so WTF were they talking about, saying that the sway bar end links might break and need to be replaced? Maybe that's if you're doing UBJs?

 

• Parts you should ONLY buy OEM, else you *will* eventually find yourself kicking your own ass: LOWER BALLJOINTS (bigtime). O2 sensors. Starter. Fuel pump. Cam bolts & sleeves (also huge). Lower control arms (also huge). Too many ppl ignored that lower balljoint warning & found their front wheel horizontal, stuffed into their cab. Don't be them. OEM pricing on LBJs is comparable to aftermarket, be sure to buy fresh high-strength bolts (8 needed) when replacing! Some aftermarket-is-OK parts exceptions HERE. But seriously, THE OEM LOWER BALLJOINT HYPE IS REAL, here's some proof, you don't want to be these people: , , link, link, link, link, link, link, link. If you're worried about costs of OEM, buy the OEM recall kit?

• Use OEM parts ... i.e. Toyota / AISIN / Denso / Advics brands. Especially with electronic parts only order Denso/Toyota, esp. if tough to replace (starter, fuel pump), go OEM. ALWAYS order OEM lower balljoints!!! (and get fresh LBJ bolts), you saw the pics linked above, right? Toyota's OEM filters for air and oil are actually incredible, contrary to some may expect. Toyota designed their air and oil filters with longevity of their engines in mind, you do not need (and probably shouldn't) use aftermarket filters regardless how much you love Wix (my favorite) or other brands. Speaking of filters, believe me when I tell you it's almost never, ever the fuel filter causing your starting/running issue. Don't bother busting your knuckles swapping it out if you're certain yours is OEM original. 2005-2006 trucks don't have a filter outside the tank. So far we've seen one person who found the fuel filter was their problem ... and the clogged filter on their truck was an aftermarket parts store brand made in Israel, not Toyota OEM. Their symptoms were the engine bogging down under lead, which is also something that can happen with fouled plugs and a single bad coil pack.

• Lower balljoints: Toyota had a recall for some models, but here is a dire warning to heed: Always replace lower ball joints w/OEM (and use fresh bolts). The LBJ on first gens is a major high-stress point; Toyota over-engineered their recall LBJs to compensate, 3rd party aftermarket doesn't bother. You will find yourself in the hall of shame. This even goes for Moog, NAPA, AC Delco brand who had LBJ recalls! Note: Moog outsources many parts nowadays, the failed LBJs for 1st gen Tundra/Sequoia made 4/2020-5/2021 with Moog/NAPA/AC Delco branding had 12% failure rate (link to NHTSA).

 

The issue iv ran into is the outer tie rods get all lose and the bolt just spins and I just replace the outer tie rods.

For ball joints
If you are doing it your self, rent the tool from autozone (its free just eave a deposit) https://www.autozone.com/test-scan-...-fork-opening-ball-joint-separator/787834_0_0

Iv tried the one from Harbor Freight and it was al little to narrow and the one from autozone was nice and old/seasoned and had the perfect groove to remove them.


Also buy new bolts for your ball joints - 8 total Part number 90105-12316

 

Thanks mamba for the good resources/links.

Jerry, I think you might be confused. You're talking about tie rods - I just did my tie rod replacement actually so I own that tool you linked to. I am not talking about tie rods, I'm talking about sway bars. I am confused why the shop said they want to order sway bar end links to put on "because they will probably break when we do the ball joints (upper and lower)." I can see the LBJs can be replaced without touching the sway bar. Maybe the uppers are a different story, I need to have a look at that.

 

BS. Sounds like he's just trying to make money off of you where he can. You can do both joints with the sway bar all connected. The Factory Service Manual is readily available online, and the sway bar links are not mentioned in the removal/ install instructions for either the LBJ or UBJ.

If he's worried about the end links breaking, it's only a couple of nuts and bolts to remove them before you even do the job. Sometimes new shocks go in easier with sway bar links are removed, but that's it.

 

Yeah exactly, I looked at him sideways when he first said it but since I havent done the LBJs before had to go look under the truck and watch a video to make sure I wasn't crazy. Thank you for confirming that I have no idea what he is talking about, and yeah, probably just wants to make more $ -- or maybe he is thinking the whole LCA has to come out?

 

Sometimes the Internet is right. There may be some vehicles where Moog is the superior choice for ball joints(doubtful) but our truck isn't it. Do not buy them. Ever. I'm glad you came here for advice because a lot of people would trust the mechanic without doing any research.

 

Moog isn’t Moog anymore and hasn’t been for 10-15 years now. Don’t make me repost the video of plastic in their parts where brass once lived.

We on this form have more pics of 1st gen’s with snapped non-OEM LBJ than that mechanic works on cars in a full month. It is 100% established that OEM LBJ is your best guarantee, b/c Toyotas design puts far too much pressure on the LBJ.

 

Not to mention, I ask the shop what parts they quoted me for the LBJs (at $170 ea mind you) and they say moog. Then I google the P/N that's on the quote printout sheet and it's this:

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/carquest-premium-chassis-ball-joint-410-96849/12359048-P

Not moog, and not $170 either. This is why I have trust issues! I have already ordered the OEM LBJs and 8x bolts to secure them from Olathe Toyota and expect to install them myself next week. Just need these current ones to last another 50 miles.

 

Man that 50 miles may as well be 50,000. There are hardly any major scale “POS” stories when it comes to the first gen Tundra. That’s what drew me to them. That being said, 3 people I know personally who have a story are all LBJs. And this forum echos that

 

Consider yourself lucky that you figured out the LBJ situation BEFORE a catastrophic failure. You've earned your PhD at the School of Hard Knocks.

 

I will pray for you. I’m glad you’re doing it right. Once it’s finished, this thread will be a success story

 

And I can't help myself, obligatory "Moog isn't Moog anymore" parts shaming... People need to understand all Moog makes is basically disposable garbage these days. I wonder if that shop even knows Moog, NAPA and one other company got sucked up into a national recall on 1st Gen Tundra balljoints less than 3 years ago? Probably not. This is why I don't trust people to touch my stuff. Idiots.

https://youtu.be/RQWwTB8w2Hk​

 

I feel compelled to add a story here.

I have a 2000 model that I have owned since 2006. I bought her from the original owner who put 120k on her. She now has just under 310k. I have every maintenance record on my truck from day one. Now ignorance is bliss. My LBJs had never been replaced on my truck until I replaced all front-end components last summer. I wasn't aware (during my first 18 years of ownership) that LBJ failure was a thing and as such, I never thought to replace them. It could be because the 2000 trucks had the LBJs from the better supplier and weren't affected by the recall that allowed me to go 304k on them, or by just pure grace of God, but none the less, I did 304k on original LBJs.

Being that I wasn't yet a member here and had not done any research on the topic, I never thought to go back with OEM LBJs. I saw a few options from MOOG, Movotech, AC Delco and so on. All of them looked cheap. The only ones that looked like they might be worth a shit were the Sankei 555, so I bought and installed those. After joining here (because I needed a wiring diagram and membership was required to download it) I learned of the LBJ failure. In my embarrassment, I made known that I have the 555s and was somewhat assured that they are or might be as close to OE as possible. I felt better, but that little voice in my head kept poking me with all of the thoughts of LBJ failure. So recently when Serra had their big sale, I bought new OEM ones with new bolts and installed them, replacing the 555s that only had 5k miles on them.

Here is where my compelling point enters. I should have taken a side-by-side pic for comparison between the OEM and the 555, but I didn't. Upon installation, I found that the OEM are a bit longer and as such, the toe has been pushed out. I also noticed that I had this quirk for the past 5k miles where at a complete stop and I released the brake, there was a clunk, and you could feel a slight shifting in the from end from pressure being released. That is now gone with the install of the OEM LBJs. Could I have inadvertently ordered and installed the wrong 555 LBJs? Sure. But without the side-by-side comparison between the 2, I cannot support that even Sankei 555 LBJs are close to OE and I'm glad that I replaced them.

 

And on the plus side, like me, you now have 2 "emergency trail spares" to carry with you.

 

Nope, I tossed them. After what I discovered, they won't go back on my truck. I will order OEM spares at the next Toyota sale.

 

I learned the hard way with Moog LBJ's, which I was told were just as good as OEM. Had to replace with OEM within a year. They're garbage.

 

Well, I did 37k mi over 4 years with these oreillys house brand LBJs. I am curious to see how they held up so I'll try to take them apart and see what shape they are in.

 

Also, anyone know a good way to inspect the upper ball joints for wear? I would like to know ahead of time before I do the LBJ replacements. The main symptoms I see seem to be emanating from the LBJ (squeaking and movement when prying with a pry bar underneath the tire).
The videos I've found just show shaking the wheel at 12 and 6 and I don't think that will differentiate between worn upper vs worn lower ball joints.

 

There's not a lot of strain on the uppers. You can use the standard push/pull test at 6 & 12 o'clock to check for play. Not a fun part to press in/out. If no play, move on. I mean, if you have new LBJ at least. A pull at 12 o'clock while jacking up from the LCA should be semi-clear if the upper is moving.

 

The uppers are pretty cheap so I'd just replace them at the same time. They do suck to pull out. Get the special tool from total chaos.