No crank, no start. Can't bypass starter relay.

I want to start by thanking the contributors of this forum for uploading so much helpful information, experience, insights etc. I already got the FSM and wiring diagrams from here and so much more, thank you all!

So after taking my 2002 AC 2WD 4.7 tundra with 97k miles home (pics in the gallery on my profile) I made the decision to have a local shop replace the timing belt + tensioner, water pump, thermostat, and serpentine belt + its idler & tensioner with parts I sourced on rockauto based on the recommendations on these forums (thank you!). Since I still cant find any service history on toyota.com or vincheckup or carfax and I figured better safe than sorry.

The truck was low on coolant so I asked the shop to look for a leak as well. The previous owner had the truck serviced at this shop, so they were familiar with it. They recently put in a bunch of o'reily parts.

They kept the truck for a week including over the weekend. When they finally called me they told me I needed a new starter, but they could start it with the battery hooked up to a charger. They refilled the coolant but I don't think they looked for the leak.

I brought the truck home, couldn't start it, bought a new battery, then it started slowly (no crank for 8 seconds, then hesitant start). Every start after that was better. Then I didn't drive for it a week and now it wont crank again. The coolant is low again, but there is no puddle on the ground.

I havn't found wires rubbing the serpentine belt, but maybe I looked in the wrong place? Generic OBDII scan showed no codes, so I didn't check the cam sensor wires. New battery seems fine, although its discharging with all my start attempts. I'm ordering a battery tender. I pulled the starter relay. I get about 75 ohms across ports 1-2. My digital multi meter doesn't make the continuity sound above 60ohms, so I actually bought a generic starter relay from car quest only to discover it tests at 140ohms and doesn't solve the issue.

Since then I found this thread (https://www.tundras.com/threads/2002-tundra-starter.135017/#post-3421295) in which 2002_Tundra_AR describes very similar issues to mine. Based on 2002_Tundra_AR's and my OEM toyota starter relays, it seems they are supposed to have about 75 ohms across 1-2, but I want to ask the forum.

I also can't bypass the starter relay. I got the starter to click and a bunch of sparks flying one time using a wire to bridge the battery positive terminal with terminal 3. I tried multiple times and only got a reaction once. Terminal 5 to 3 I get nothing. With the multimeter I get nothing but it reads 6amps, between both battery positive to terminal 3 and terminal 5 to 3. I get >12v across the same points.

V=IR. Since V is good, and I is low, R must be high. So I have a loose or bad wire connection somewhere creating extra resistance?

I'm about to pull my intake manifold to physically check the starter connections and ground, but I wanted to post to ask if I am going down the right path. I've never disconnected so much from an engine at once before...

I've read tons of advice to check my wires, but what does that mean? Do I need to remove the sheathing/conduits?

Is everyone buying the denso starter contact kits off of Amazon? I can't find any part numbers for the 'terminal C kit' and 'terminal 30 kit' referenced in the FSM.

How bad is it to reuse the intake manifold gaskets? Any recommendation on oem replacement? rockauto only has fel-pro in a kit with the upper intake gasket and throttle body gasket. That shop didn't charge for a new ones when they replaced the valve cover gaskets, and the they had to remove the intake to do that right?

Do a lot of people leave the throttle body attached? It seems even with the cable under tension there will still be enough slack to place the whole assembly upside down on top of the fuse box, evap system area.

Does the brake booster need any resetting after removing the vac line?

Thanks again for any advice!

 

Like what? These trucks really don't like certain parts that are not OEM. Electronic especially.

 

A bunch of stuff unfortunately. The only history I have on this truck is from the previous owner who bought it 2023 and sold it after these service charges. They said it ran great, always started fine, never had any issues that stopped it from running. It started fine for me up until the last service.

Jan 2024 truck taken into shop for oil leak. I have the invoice for:

1x O2 sensor downstream

2x O2 sensor upstream

Valve cover gasket w/spark plug seal & grommet set

Front brake pad set

front brake rotors

reman front brake calipers

Then in April 2024 the truck is brought back with a check engine light. That invoice has:

8x spark plugs

8x ignition coil

1x fuel filter

2x new fuel injector cyl 3,8

1x reman fuel injector cyl 1

All these parts were from oreily and the shop charged 170% o'reilys listed price.

I was hoping to shop for oem parts during sales this year.

But I didn't pull any codes on the scan tool and if it was a spark or fuel issue wouldn't it still crank?

 

I think you need to start here. There seems to be multiple issues, but you should check the biggest one off. Look for a grounding problem or even rodent chewed wires. They love to live under the intake manifolds on these trucks. The fact that it sat for a week at the shop (probably outside), and considering where you live, this is highly suspect. You can get the starter tested at this point also. Anytime you pull the intake manifold off, a new gasket should be fitted. RA fel-pro is OK for this.

 

Only coming in to chime on a couple of points. Been pretty busy lately. Specifically picking out the following lines above ... bold emphasis mine, and some numbering for reference.

From the top-down:

1) I am probably the king of O'reilly hate on here. I've had nothing but shit experience. I'll take any chance I can get to shit on them, and shit on any shop who chooses to use them. Amateur hour. But I digress.

2) They told you you needed a new starter, but did they install a new starter? This is kinda important. Because if they bought it at O'reilly, or any other parts store for that matter, and it's an aftermarket part, it's quite possible it was defective. The number of DOA aftermarket parts we see people bitch about on here and other auto forums online is alarming. I don't know how we got to this state, but QC/QA on parts hitting the store has absolutely gone down the shitter. Reman quality down the shitter. If they replaced the starter, that's a symptom.

3) Yes, this sounds like a cable/wiring issue. Almost like something is draining the battery other than the starter, or you have something leaking electricity somewhere. When I say cable issue, it could be corrosion in the cables feeding the starter's power or, something else with the line that's restricting or impeding power flow. Corrosion causes heat, heat arcs shit out. I'm tempted to tell you to get under the fuse/relay box and look for electrical arc/melt damage, but that may be a handful of work, the fuse/relay box is not intuitive to pull. That said, a thought: Loss of coolant, plus issues with starter ... I wonder if they fucked up when doing the timing belt, and you're flooding coolant into the intake valley? That would compromise electrical connections, loss of coolant, etc. They may not have burped properly, may not have clocked the jiggle valve at noon for the t-stat, and you had an air bubble that's worked or working out. Do you have a snake cam you could use to look under the intake?

4) "Tried multiple times ... only got a reaction once", again harking back to reply #2 a couple lines up, this could speak to DOA/faulty starter, or to #3 bad ground, for example, or corrosion and/or poor feed, like you've melted something under the fuse/relay box for the start circuit. Before ripping the manifold off, I'd be poking around at that, since solid ground and good delivery of power are crucial to start function, and this may not be DOA starter, it may be the original starter was fine, but the issue is exacerbated.

5) No, nobody with any sense buys parts off scAmazon. or fleaBay. EVER. It is 100% not safe, to the point the federal gov't has been working for years to pass multiple pieces of legilsation and consumer protection to combat the flood of knockoff/counterfeit/cheapshit (dangerous) products that flood through their site. You'll find dozens of members on this site (and others) who've been a victim to counterfeit parts. Auto Parts. Small engine parts. Appliance parts and other electronics. Hell, on the last 5 years, I've gotten a handful of knockoff/grey market Frigidaire appliance parts and a bunch of counterfeited 3M products. It's a fucking joke. But bottom line: NEVER buy parts on those two sites, or any other site that DOES NOT and WILL NOT guarantee authenticity, or react in the event you suffer damage as a result of their inventory.

On the rest:

Not sure if I'd pull manifold yet. Start with electrical first, stuff that doesn't require extra knowledge.

Checking wires doesn't require removing loom/tape, more like:

• Using a multimeter to verify connections end-to-end for resistance and/or breaks in continuity.
• Visually inspecting wiring, to ensure the loom/tape ("sheathing") is nicked or compromised in some way
• Visually inspect connectors to make sure nothing is loose
• Example: We had one person on here with intermittent start issues. It turned out, the retention clip had broken for the starter connector, and would ride up periodically, losing contact; a loose connection like that can cause arc'ing upstream and melt shit too!

If they did buy new gaskets, I'd be OK re-using, but I'm not sure I'd go there yet if I were you.

If you have a stealership anywhere near you, know you can pay their techs for diagnostics to help isolate the problem. Needless to say, regardless of familiarity, I wouldn't be using that shop anymore. If you can find a nearby Toyota specialist (not a chain store, someone that only works w/Toyota), I'd consider towing in and having them run diags on it.

Sorry you're having issues!

 

@jakeyjohn1 - +1 what Shifty’ says. I’m sorry you are experiencing this. I wish you had seem Shifty’s megathread before buying. It’s going to take more than a few Bucks to unbuckle your truck but invest now and you can rest assured it will be a reliable vehicle. FGTs are not the best choice for people who don’t do their own maintenance. If you can’t fix it yourself, find a new garage, preferably a local honest independent garage where the owner knows Tundras.

 

Thanks so much for the advice @ATBAV8 @shifty` @bfunke ! I didn't consider pulling the fuse box. A snake cam could be helpful for looking under there too. This isn't the first time I've wanted a snake cam either, might be time for me. In the meantime I'm going to try to be patient and use a mirror on a stick to really try to see every connection I can before getting down to the starter. I have been worried about phantom loads, is there a special way of testing for those?

I come from the VW golf/gti world of 'bolt ons' so while setting the timing sounded beyond my experience level, everything outside the engine block seems more doable. It ran great until I decided it needed a new timing belt. I also figured the bargain bin parts hadn't broken yet so I hopefully have 1-2 years to preemptively replace them.

I don't believe in coincidences, I like the idea that rodents got to it, because the alternatives are harder to swallow.

 

Good luck with whatever direction you decide to go. Please report back. I'm definitely curious as to what the problem turns out to be.

 

Get the snake cam, can't hurt. My neighbors have borrowed it to solve a HVAC duct blockages. I used it to inspect under my intake. DEPSTECH makes some "good enough" stuff on scAmazon.

You've got goot company here from the VW world. I personally had an awesome 99.5 GTI VR6 manual, and a MKIV Jetta.

Phantom loads, two vids to share. If you have a multimeter, you can test for parasitic draw and shorts using these videos. I can't stand ChrisFix, but the content is good. Skip to 18m29 in the 1st vid if it's not there already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC--MLNIbik#t=18m29s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5FJDgcdii8​

 

Thanks for those videos! Good explanations

So I think I have given up on visual inspections. Removing the battery frees up more space to look around than I expected. I haven't been able to look under the intake manifold yet and I don't think I am looking where I need to be to see 'under' the fuse box. Everything I can see looks intact.
Everything below the valve covers is covered in oil residue and dust. But the cable sheathing seems undamaged, and the cables going into the connectors also seem undamaged (mainly connector EB1 going into the fuse/relay box). The starter wiring diagram shows splice point E2 below the fuse/relay box in the engine bay. I cant find that. I think maybe it is the junction in the sheathing coming from the battery positive, but I'm not sure. I didn't want to cut off the sheathing to inspect the splice points, should I? Is it easy to replace?

How meaningful is continuity with a multi-meter?

After studying the wiring diagram (2002 wiring diagram, found here, thanks @RainMan_PNW !) I was able to get continuity with <1ohm resistance everywhere except the B-L wire going from the battery positive to the starter S1A connection, which I wasn't able to test since I can't reach it with the manifold in place. I removed the battery and starter relay. Then using the battery's ground point (EA in the wiring manual), and the engine block as a ground, I verified continuity between the battery cable, all fuses, the starter relay terminals, the ignition switch (turning it with the key), and grounds as shown in the starter wiring diagram (except the starter S1A connection). So the W-R, G-B, B-W, P, and even B-Y (I checked even tho its an automatic) wires all seem intact and properly connected (only B-L is not verified).

So all my fuses, park/neutral sensor, starter relay, and grounds seem to have good wiring and connections.


But in the beginning I wasn't able to bypass the starter relay and measured only 6amps with a 12v potential on my multi meter when shorting the battery positive to starter relay terminal 3. Battery is new. Terminal 3 to either ground point I used gives continuity with <1ohm resistance with the battery removed. So the starters S2B connection, internal wiring, and ground connection seem good.

Thus I think I have narrowed it down to the B-L wire/connections or the plunger side of the starter.


But what about shorts? Electricity takes the path of least resistance, so maybe instead of high R on the intended circuit, I am experiencing current on an unexpected path with super low R?

I tried figuring out the power source and grounding diagrams but it seems the starter isn't on those? Also the direct connection between the battery and starter shown on the starter wiring diagram seems to eliminate the possibility of a short (unless B-L is exposed and touching the engine block?) But I am grasping at straws haha.

Should I order a new starter or just the intake gaskets in hopes B-L is loose? If B-L is corroded what do I do?

 

The valve covers on the V8 in these trucks are pretty notorious for leaking. Sometimes because the bolts back off a bit. But they don't require a ton of torque - very low inch pounds of torque - and they also tend to snap off on removal. The job is a little tedious and requires some FIPG, and to do it right you need to do the couple of half-moon plugs per side at the back of the head, but ... yeah. Sometimes just checking the bolts is enough to stop leaking substantially.

I asked about that because just today, yet another case: https://www.tundras.com/threads/crank-no-start-diagnosing-and-solving.146559/

I remember this one guy who got his truck and found someone before him had re-joined the cable that crosses over to the alternator poorly and didn't wrap very well. It was arc'ing to the frame. Totally nuts.

Depends on the circuit. If it's supposed to have continuity, continuity is important

"New" battery means nothing. Failures happen. Battery testing with a professional battery tester most local auto parts stores have costs you nothing but time and gas. I have one here at the house I scored on the cheap, I got tired of running up and back. I've seen more than one battery die within days or weeks of purchase. It happens. Defects are real, especially these days in a world where companies hire the cheapest sweat labor possible, and DGAF about consumer happiness or product quality. Name gets tarnished? Start a business with a different name! Now you don't need to do warranty on the old products. It's silly what flies today. Companies have no moral backbone anymore, and consumers seem to be cool with that.

This is the big question. I suck at tracing circuits like this, mostly because I can't read electrical diagrams very well. I know my shortcomings, I'm definitely the wrong guy to ask.

 

I had my new battery tested and its in like-new condition still. Tested at 750 cca.

So I'm going to order the 1.4kw or 2kw denso reman'd starter and fel-pro gasket kit from rock auto. I'm considering just getting the gaskets, and testing the starter to see if I can rebuild it, but not being able to use the truck is starting to get frustrating. I still can't find any info on the starter contact kits, Amazon has 'denso starter contact kits.' The FSM mentions Terminal C kit part and Terminal 30 kit part, but I don't know where to find the toyota part numbers for those. Also the gasket for sealing the plunger area.

 

STARTER KIT, BATTERY TERMINAL
28226-50070

STARTER KIT, MOTOR TERMINAL
28226-50080

PLUNGER, MAGNET SWITCH
28235-54380

GASKET, MAGNET SWITCH COVER
28175-50080

 

Wow thanks @assassin10000 ! Did you find those by manually browsing the parts catalogue at autoparts.toyota.com?

In hopes of getting the truck running sooner I'm ordering another starter. Im telling my self its worthwhile to have extra parts haha. I'm mentally preparing for the old starter to bench test well and the new one not solve the problem, but Ill find out soon enough when the parts arrive! If the old starter does have problems I'm going to rebuild it.

 

Basically yes.

 

I broke the S2 starter connector; disconnected easily by hand then the tab broke when I was inserting a multi meter probe into the connector. I have no idea how it broke... Gonna be at least another week, probably two, before a new one arrives from toyotapartsdeal.com

What else do I need to replace the connector? Am I going to need to solder if I'm not adding/splicing extra wire in?

I have continuity from S2 to the fuse 5A STA in the driver side fuse box.

Naturally I'm having difficulty getting the main 14mm bolts. They are resting with penetrate right now.

Where is the S1 connection? I still haven't verified the main battery cable is ok. Is it directly below the S2 connector connected with a bolt?

Also my truck seems to be missing this wire:

 

You can buy the connector from the dealer and repin with your wires. Do not cut. The missing wire is an engine ground IIRC.

 

Wait, did the plastic clip break or metal pin? If the leads are intact you just repin, as Bryan said. If you broke off the metal pin, its condition maybe contributed to the problem.

 

Only the plastic clip broke.
https://youtu.be/TfDKMyG7W7I?si=o8-MTKuGpfgn41TT

Based on this repining seems easy, I just got to find that tab. The S2 connector only has one lead.

I noticed I broke connector W3 for the water temp sender as well. Must have smashed it pulling the intake... I forgot to unplug the sendor and the temp sensor right next to it.

Once I got the starter out I realized the wire/connector I highlighted in the above diagram is S1 going to the battery positive. The diagram is pretty misleading considering there is actually an empty tapped hole right there. I have continuity from that connector up to the battery positive connector.

Any advice for safely testing the starter outside the truck? I'm nervous of high amperage if I simply connect the terminals to the car battery (also currently out of the truck). I want to test the new starter as well, but don't want to damage it right out of the box either...

 

My local Auto Zone has a test bench. You bring them a starter or alternator, and as long as the person behind the counter knows how to use it, they'll test for free.

I wouldn't be surprised if the FSM has a method to test --- have you checked the FSM? It's free for download out there.

 

The FSM test procedure is what worries me haha. The performance test is supposed to measure up to 90amps (my multimeter leads say 10amp max on them) and the manual warns doing the steps wrong will burn out the coil. It also suggests using a Y cable to connect the negative side of the battery in multiple places on the starter.

I'll give my autozone a call... I don't know if ill trust them with the new one though!

So now I'm worried I broke the male and female connectors on the water sender. Does anyone know what the male side should look like? I have broken plastic down in the center; I can't tell if it broke off from the female side on the wire or if its from the male side...

 

Fortunately the one you broke is the one for the dash gauge. The one for the ECU - the really important one - is net to it.

 

Well it was a bad starter!

I did the no load performance test from the FSM, which is shown in this video
https://youtube.com/shorts/wF3Mek4kf_w?si=wqfTb2TANJ9rg1Rj

My old starter would move its piston but it wouldn't spin, the denso from rock auto spins like in the video.

Finally got it all put back together and it started up great! I'm glad I took the time to clean the sludge from the intake ports. I swear the engine sounds better now. Even if only I can hear the difference, it still makes me smile