OIL - Toyota Synthetic. Odd Additive Amount

Just a quick background so you know I'm not some moron just posting craziness. I'm a 20 year A&P engine mechanic for a major US airline and have never not played with project cars in my garage. Oil sampling of aircraft engine oil is a never ending process simply to detect metallic wear from different locations. Different engine locations have different metals and oil analysis can amazingly pinpoint future failure points almost precisely. This brings up my topic of automobile oils. I am a 100% believer in any top rated oil especially synthetic is good for your vehicle. If your think your going to find some huge difference from a completely idiotic YouTube load test or cold pour test Dear Lord wake up. API, PQIA, ACEA Europe are all absolute in their ratings. The difference between two API stamped oils at your local store is literally miniscule. Then come the additives which is also very similar between oils. PQIA is an amazing website to see the amounts of these additives. Again, most major oils are very similar but that is the reason for this post. Toyota Synthetic Motor Oil is also very close with one MASSIVE difference. Molybdenum is astronomically higher then pretty much every brand out there. Measured in PPM(parts per million) almost are major oils are between <1 - 90 with most in the <20 category. One of the highest, Amsoil, is stated at 60ppm but tested at 153. What I'm getting at is most additives for all highly rated motor oils fall into a "normal" range including molybdenum. This is where Toyota stands out. Toyota Synthetic molybdenum is 787ppm. Not double or triple other leading brands but in general well over 10 times the amount. Other tests have also shown Toyota's moly amounts to be vastly different. Obviously Toyota is not some crap car maker and pretty much owns the reliability scores on all tests. I'm just curious does anyone have insight as to why this would be so high? Again, this would not be an issue if our test control was only 5 brands but when there is over a 100 brands of oil and only one is this high it begs the question. Molybdenum is not expensive so anyone can use as much as they want. There must be some reason. I'm going to go against everything I stated above and state that the one other oil with a truly high number in moly is Amsoil and we all know that if there is in fact a slightly higher quality oil is would probably be Amsoil. But even they are not on the same planet as Toyota in this ppm score. Now please don't just Google Molybdenum because while its still used for its metal sticking ability it no longer has the wear characteristics of when it was used in WW2. Sorry for the crazy long rant but while I know why everyone uses molybdenum and can't figure out why Toyota uses so much.

 

That's a good question.

 

We use molybdenm laden greases and oils in military aviation as well. Your post intrigues me. I used to be a valvoline synthetic guy with my ford, but was concidering switching to mobile one with my Tundra once my dealership oil changes are used up. I recently switched from valvoline synthetic to mobile one synthetic in my wifes 2014 toyota sienna.

 

Man, that's a hell of a second post. I've only been here for a few months, but there isn't much oil nerding going on here. Have you asked your question on BITOG yet? That forum will go full crazy with a question like this.

 

I am not qualified to answer our question. I sent it to the director at Long Island Analytical Laboratories. They do engine oil analysis. Maybe he might know. The only other recommendation is to post this on Bob the Oil Guy site. It specializes in oil. Maybe someone there may be able to answer.

 

737Fixer -- Unfortunately, I have no input on this but think your question about 'why' is spot-on. Will be watching closely for the answer. Welcome to the forum.

 

I wonder why my stealership uses Mobil 1 instead of ‘Toyota Brand Oil’?

 

Can someone tell my why Motul smells like bubble gum? It's a serious question, and they oil recycle oils freak out when I bring it in and they see green....

 

I came into contact with Molybdenum Disulfide in my career as a friction reducing, extreme pressure additive used in gear oils. This was back in the seventies. For years, Mobil made a chassis grease with MoS2 in it, and I went out of my way to find it for personal use. Molybdenum Disufide is black, and it wouldn't take much of it to turn motor oil black. That wouldn't help customer perception, but maybe it's invisible at 787 ppm levels.

I suppose Toyota could be looking for the same effects in their motor oil...friction reduction and extreme pressure resistance. And, more of those qualities is better, right? Owners here keep claiming that Toyota's factory fill is Mobil 1. That may be true, but if it is, Toyota is buying Mobil 1 with a proprietary additive package. How do I know?...Toyota's factory-fill oil SMELLS different than WalMart's Mobil 1 (not different like bubble-gum), and the nose knows.

More info from the internet...Sorry, couldn't help myself:
https://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/molybdenum_disulfide_characteristics.htm

 

A business case for that might be...

easy identification of the oil in the crankcase for some reason? Perhaps it’s for warranty purposes?

 

From what I have read, Toyota oil uses old form of moly (MoS2) which requires a higher amount of moly vs. the new form of moly (Tri Nuclear). Amsoil and many others, use the new form of moly and therefore less amount is required.

I've also read that only old Toyota oils had high amounts (787) of MoS2 moly and based on most recent virgin oil analysis, the current Toyota oil (by Mobil 1) doesn't have as much moly and maybe using the new form of moly. Unless you find some old and unsold Toyota oil on the shelves with high moly.

Also the new form of moly (Tri Nuclear) is as effective with much less amount!

 

I am a BITOG fan as well. I have researched this product and found only one company that tried this in motor oil years ago.
The product is WS2. Tungsten Disulfide it has the lowest coefficient of static friction known.
Mostly seen today as a grease additive.

 

This brought me back. I did use a black moly grease in the 70's. I still remember arguing with the mechanics that their Exxon Green grease couldn't hold a candle to my moly grease. I still remember we put a blob of grease in the shop and put another blob of my grease next to it. 6 months later we came back and the Exxon green grease had hardened, dry and cracked. The moly grease looked the same.

BTW: I never did smell my Mobil one. It smells like bubble gum?

 

Modern large dealerships have motor oil dispensing equipment from bulk tanks. The technician dials in desired volume, puts dispensing gun in the valve cover, pulls the trigger. When the selected volume has flowed, the equipment automatically shuts off.

Besides being faster (more oil changes per techician), it's also more efficient (no spills, no container trash). Plus, it has to be much cheaper than using Toyota "branded" packaging. Don't ask me why dealers can't demand distributors get the Toyota blend for them. Toyota may insist they sell it to no one but their manufacturing plants, OR, Mobil may refuse to sell dealers anything but retail Mobil1 (probably mostly that AFE blend) with Toyota corporate staying out of it.

 

Nah...NOT like bubble-gum. Someone said Motul smells like bubblegum.

When I changed my new Tundra's oil at 1000 miles to remove manufacturing and wear-in debris, there was no chance of any contamination by combustion products or raw gasoline IMO. I had a large volume of the factory fill oil in a large open drain container...it was easy to discern a distinct fishy, chemical smell that was absent from the fresh Mobil 1.

I've owned and serviced my Toyotas for decades. I had previously noted an even stronger "fishy" smell from their factory gear oils. This was back in the day when everything Toyota came from Japan. I always wondered if they were formulating lubricants to minimize petroleum (a carryover from the war years). AFAIK, Japan has no native petroleum production, I believe it all has to be imported. Having manufacturing plants in the US would have drastically changed that, but old habits die hard.

 

The OP's observations is why you should not dump your Mama Toyota new-from-the-dealer engine oil at 500, 1000, 2000 miles (to get the perceived metal shavings, etc. "out of there.") Run that factory oil all the way out on the OCI and then set sights on a million miles.

Holy crap this disclaimer has never been truer >>> YMMV!!!!!!

 

LOL. Yeah, probably true...Toyota knows that works for 99 percent of all the vehicles they sell. But, then they know there is no point in recommending an anally-retentive oil change at 1000 miles to most owners, because the tight-asses are not going to do it anyway. I'm not recommending an early oil change to anyone else, it's just what I do for some vehicles.

I can't help myself: I'm OCD. My left hemisphere says, "Early oil changes are illogical BS!". OTOH, my right hemisphere says, "What if a tiny little machine turning in an oil gallery goes through your entire engine scoring up all your bearings and removing decades off your Tundra's life!". On vehicles I'm in love with, I have to do it...like hummingbirds going to South America for the winter.

Merry Christmas, McGov.

 

TGMO is definitely not mobil 1. It's currently made by ExxonMobil though. Very similar to Mobil Super 0w20, possibly Toyota specced their own additive package. There are a lot of BITOG posts about TGMO having very high Moly content, but not THAT high

 

Along a similar vein, would oils high in Zinc (like Mobil1 Racing oils) be beneficial for an engine used as a daily driver. My research says that the Zinc would quickly destroy catalytic converters which is the reason its not used in everyday formulations, but what if there (hypothetically) weren’t catalytic converter requirements?

 

The apparently unique additive package is really interesting here because most "OEM" oils are rebranded off the shelf products, e.g. even Mercedes and BMW do this.

 

I'll discuss with my oil expert and get back to you.

Isn't the Toyota branded oil being used in the Tundras made by Mobil1?

 

That's interesting info, and I'm not surprised at all. OEMs buy from whomever/whatever meets their specification for the cheapest price.

Is Mobil Super 0W20 a full synthetic oil? I thought it was a synthetic blend. Not that it makes any difference. I believe Toyota corporate recommends a viscosity grade, and not specifically a full synthetic oil...but I've been wrong before. Dealership recommendations are something altogether different.

 

They make both full syn and blend under the Mobil Super brand

 

This is exactly my plan. If it was necessary to change the oil/filter for the first time at an earlier mileage (or age) point, the manual would say so. One of the first things I do when acquiring a new vehicle is to study the maintenance schedules. I follow Toyotas schedule to the letter. My first Tundra (2006) had 225,000 miles on it when I sold it to my daughter and it drove like it just came off the lot. BTW, she has had it for nearly two years and has driven it all over California and up to Seattle - still running perfect.

Dan

 

For a definitive study ease over to BITOG and look up the Caterham Blend TGMO.
He is a Toyota motor oil specialist. He really likes their additive package.

 

Here's the response from the guy I consult for all my oil questions:

"Would you be surprised to find out that Red Line oil contains about 600 ppm Moly? Syn4Life has loads of moly and graphite and PTF and is entirely esters. It's black as coal. Slick as deer guts on a brass door knob. And nearly $40 a quart. ARCO use to have a graphite based oil but years before learning how to keep it in suspension. Oh the horror stories. Trick with it like most things was changing it more often than you think you need to. That all said, dispersants have come far enough that levels this high will not drop out. He is right. Toyota isn't an idiot player.

He is only partially correct, sort of, about the API ratings. They meet a MINIMUM spec to achieve a specific label. There is no penalty for exceeding it. That is there isn't an upside limit to a spec. Yes their requirements are absolutes. Absolute minimum for the classification.

As far as load test between oils, he's not far off there either. Seems a pretty well informed fella. All the additives in the world will not keep two pieces of metal from touching each other. Additives don't prevent contact, they prevent damage when contact is made by offering a sacrificial metal bonded to the metal meant to be protected. These sacrificial additives are consumed over time. More additive doesn't mean more protection, It means longer service life for equivalent protection. Yes, providing minimum levels are met. Castrol Titanium is an oil advertising a loophole in the API spec. No standard for Titanium under the API certification. There is so little in it that it does nothing. Pennzoil with Penthane did the same thing around 2000. AMSOIL's claim to 75% more protection isn't load based. It's a trick of the math. Meaning it contains 75% more sacrificial additives than the UNIVERSAL AVERAGE loading.

So why doesn't everyone use loads of moly? A penny here and a penny there, I suppose.

Oil is so steeped in marketing LIES that the truth is very hard to find. I hate this part of humanity. Profits become more important to the individual than the greater good of all. NOT how God intended us to behave."

 

Oil is a complex issue. The STLE group are made up of lubrication engineers and tribologists that have dr's degrees.
White Papers abound!

 

Assuming you’re talking about moly in the bottle not on the initial drain? I know that a Honda products WAY back in the day used special break in oil. To my knowledge, and I know a couple of the engineers at the GM Corvette engine plant and I specifically asked them this question, no large scale manufacturer currently uses a special “break in” oil. The motors are thoroughly broken in, drained, refilled, run and dynoed, flushed and refilled and then run once more on the dunk and a final drain and fill before the motor is then dropped in to a vehicle. So, it’s likely that the motor has already had 3 drain and fills before a consumer gets it. As for the high levels of moly found in early oil changes, I understand that it’s a function of the lubricants and grease they use during assembly, not additional additives the manufacturers or Mobil/Shell/Etc are putting in themselves. But that info is from early drains, not new open bottle tests. IDK. Complex topic. I figure the engineers know enough to design a motor that’s likely to last 300K plus miles... they probably know better than anyone when to change the oil out.

 

I love oil topics! I'm always on BITOG for my questions. I've really been enjoying reading this. I know Schaeffers is known for their high moly content. From grease to oil. I'm running pennzoil platinum right now but swapping to Schaeffers next oil change because I have Schaeffers in every part of my truck but the transfer case