Stock brake system versus brakeless trailer towing. Is 1st Gen up to it?

Have had my 2006 DC SR5 4x4 since 2012. 87k miles currently. Good shape mechanically, like the size, drives good, nice ARE topper, no body or frame rust, some clear coat issues in spots but could correct these.

Have towed various trailers regularly, but the only one I ever towed any real distance was a Casita TT which had electric brakes on it.

The boat/trailer I currently tow regularly is ~3,000 lbs, single axle, no brakes (FL doesn't require them at this weight). I would like to start towing this boat on longer trips.

I just don't feel really comfortable with the braking power of this truck with the boat/trailer behind it.

Am I asking too much of this truck with it's stock brake system?

I am going thru the brake system at this time and may be able to improve it a little.

Please don't suggest adding brakes to the trailer. I only launch & use my boat in salt water. I've had salt water boat trailers with brakes and not interested in going back to those problems and maintenance.

My option is to sell this truck and find a good low mileage Gen 2 to replace it. Have driven a couple and their drive trains and brakes are much stronger/better.

Any advise?

 

If trailer brakes are not an option, take look at threads like this:

https://www.tundras.com/threads/2000-2006-tundra-big-brake-upgrade-kit-14wa-calipers.61231/

You can also search this part of the forum using the words “brake upgrade”.

 

FWIW I tow 2 different boats with my 2006 DC 2WD . . . neither boat trailers have brakes.

The first is a 1988 Boston Whaler 15 with a Yamaha F70 . . . I have a trolling motor and some other stuff which adds some extra weight, but it's still a small / light rig. I'll pack up the truck which has a Snug Top with a passenger, all of our gear for a week of camping . . . generator, coolers, tents, food, tools, camera gear, tackle, water, extra fuel, etc. etc. So there's a 'decent' amount of additional weight.
I've had zero issues with this set up . . . plenty of power for towing grades, passing etc. ( I usually will get around 15 MPG on the highway towing this set up at around 65+ mph)
I drive pretty cautiously when it comes to giving space to other vehicles in front of me . . . not because of a lack of braking, but more for the 'stress' aspect of driving /towing. I've never felt weak in the braking department, but again I keep a pretty good cushion between me and anyone in front of me.

The other boat is a 1986 Boston Whaler 18 Outrage with a 115 Etec. Boat holds 60 gallons of fuel, but I try not to tow it with a full tank. When I can, I like to map-out a local gas station near the launch area and put on the amount of fuel I'll need there. No need to haul around 50 extra gallons / 300 lbs. of fuel if I don't have to. I can 'feel' the extra weight of the 18 a bit more, but it's not much at all. Same deal for the brakes . . . but I may give a little extra room just to be safe.

On steeper grades (relative to my area), if I drop below 60, I'll click-off the overdrive /5th gear and leave it locked.
That little 4.7 has plenty of 'spin' to keep things moving along all things considered.
I try to anticipate light/ smaller grades and speed up a bit . . . but I've never had a problem with the transmission 'hunting' for the right gear.

I know this is sort of a 'vague' reply . . but maybe offers a little bit of intel.
I'm guessing the 18 foot rig is around 3K lbs. so there's that.

IMO, as long as you're up on all your services, fluids etc., and your truck's running gear, tires, etc. etc. , are all in good working order, you shouldn't have any issues pulling your rig.
That being said, your driving style and expectations of what your truck can or can't do may be different than mine . . . or others.

I kiddingly call my truck a 3/8 Ton . . . compared to some of the newer full size 1/2 ton trucks 'Listed' tow ratings / capacities, our Gen 1's are a little anemic . . . but I have no complaints.

 

I’d recommend fixing the brakes to the best of your ability. It sounds like something isn’t dialed in correctly, either the rears aren’t adjusted correctly, parking brake isn’t working as expected, LSPV isn’t adjusted and/or working, or similar. There were a couple of setups in these trucks for the DCs, under the hood. The DC guys who have auto-VSC crap seem to get complained about being anemic the most.

 

Also don’t tow in overdrive.

 

I have a 2001 4Runner with the Tundra brake conversion. I pull a 6x10 trailer (no brakes) with a Farmall tractor loaded, total about 2900 lbs. Never had a braking problem. Understand, I don't go flying down the hills expecting to slam the brakes 30 feet from the bottom and stop but I will say this, I was booking down the highway about 50mph when I turned a curve and saw a semi coming straight at me on my side. I jammed the brakes and she skidded to a quick stop just as the semi swerved. A Tundra should handle a 3000lb load just fine.

 

I have no complaints about the powertrain, I understand it's no diesel and am OK with not towing in overdrive.

Not going to spend ~$1000 in parts, alot of my own labor to install and tune, for larger front calipers/rotors that get mixed reviews by the few that have installed them.

I Always keep a good distance from others when towing, which is fine for other reasonable/safe drivers, but CANNOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT the idiots which will pull right out in front of you, change lanes immediately in front of you, emergency stop in front of you, etc. etc. - which seems to be about 50% of the cars on the road anymore.

My truck will absolutely not "skid" front or rear tires as it currently is, never has, don't believe it ever will. I've had the brakes looked at by 3 different shops 3 years ago when I had them put new OEM pads on the front.

As Shifty says, I need to go thru the entire brake system and ensure everything is properly adjusted and up to spec., but I fear after doing so that I'm still not going to be happy with the brakes when towing.

If I'm missing something, please advise.

Also, can find no Advic shoes from any source (can find pads). Can find OEM Toyota. Please provide best price online source for either/both, if you have one.

Thanks

 

First off, this thread: https://www.tundras.com/threads/rear-brake-adjustment-theory-and-practice.99575/

Getting rears dialed in is the #1 step to good braking in these trucks. PERIOD. Cannot stress this enough. It's so important the topic has its own dedicated sticky thread. Nobody wants to believe this, maybe because they just can't get it right but ... there you have it.

That said, in that thread, pay close attention to reply#33. I seriously doubt either of the 3 shops you visited understands and/or bothered properly adjusting the LSPV (load sensing proportioning valve), if you have one in your truck. I don't even know if dealerships will bother with it. But the adjustment shown in that reply will cause your rears to bite faster and will have you locking up brakes if you over-adjust, if the rest of the system is about right. Not that you should get it that far, but ...

Readjusting/relocating the LSPV is something pretty important to do after lifting the truck due to how the LSPV system works. That rigging, if you have it, essentially works on this principle:

• With no load, the armature holds the proportion valve at a specific setting, distributing braking front-to-rear at a "default" setting.
• As you add load into the bed, this flexes the armature, which then opens (IIRC) the proportioning valve, engaging the rear drums more aggressively
• The heavier the load gets, the more the armature flexes, and thus pivots to open the prop valve more, enabling the rears to bite more

Essentially by adjusting where the arm engages up/down, you're manually adjusting the LSPV up/down to cause the rears to bite more. It probably only really works well if your rear drums are properly dialed in the first place, but ... It is what it is.

It sounds like you've been launching with your truck a lot, which means lots of rear axle/ass-end dumps in the water. You need to be changing your rear diff vent (if not relocated already) probably every 4-5yr/40-50k miles (it's just a $10 part) to ensure you're not sucking water. You should be changing your rear diff fluid every 30k-40k miles, noting if you have LSD, you MUST be careful which fluid you use (Lucas 80w90 works universally with no chatter). If dunking in salt water, hell, who knows, maybe your LSPV is fucked from dunking underwater. Or maybe your parking brake linkage is frozen, as is discussed in that thread I think, and it's not causing the star adjusters to hone in the brakes. On later models, if I understand correctly, you should be ble to drive in reverse and lock up the brakes and it should dial things in. In earlier models (and maybe the newer, I dunno), setting the parking brake repeatedly can dial in the drums too.

 

My boat trailer is an aluminum frame "float on" style trailer. Not ever, not even once, have the rear tires of my truck ever been in salt water - that's not how knowlegeable boaters do it down here. Truck has been in Florida it's entire life, never been exposed to salty slush snow. So much for LSPV or parking brake cables/linkages being rusted or screwed up.

Not one of the 3 shops touched the parking brake system or LSPV as far as I know, and all 3 insisted the brakes were "great" when I complained - that's why I'm working on them myself this time around.

 

Spent half my life in FL. Am a lifetime angler to boot, not as hardcore as @FishNinja but 50 weekends a year was the norm for me. Launched plenty of boats down there. Can’t speak to coastal, but some ramps through the middle of the state aren’t angled worth a shit and I’ve dunked diff/axle more than once in my lifetime, not for lack of knowing what I’m doing. I remember John’s Lake launch just west of Orlando was - at least 30/40 years ago - pretty shit-tacular to say the least.

 

twinkies!

 

this is why Kayaks are better. That and fuel.....

 

Yup, I need the exercise too. I’ve been meaning to dig into stuff to improve the Apex 100s I’ve got for angling purposes. I haven’t been able to really get serious with them, but they were free, so … I can’t complain.

 

What sized tires are in the OP’s truck? If they’re oversized, then it will take longer to stop.

 

Tires (currently) are 255/75 R17. Previous tires were 265/70 R17 and didn't stop any better.

I have a smaller (16') aluminum boat that I use in fresh water, even that boat/trailer doesn't require getting rear truck tires wet at any of the ramps I use. I don't launch boat off the side of the road. I have kayaks too.

Born in Florida, lived here 72 years.

 

Those tires are massive when compared to the base model trucks that came with the lil’ 245/70/16 tires. That kinda narrows down your options...
-keep the truck and swap out for smaller tires.
-keep the truck and install a big brake kit.
-sell the truck and buy a bigger truck with big tires that has bigger brakes.

Of course this is after you make 100% sure your current brakes are adjusted and operating correctly.
https://www.tacomaworld.com/tirecalc?tires=255-75r17-245-70r16

 

OP is running 1.5" in diameter more with his current setup, just the hop from stock 265/65 up to 265/70 in a 17 is adding an inch diameter, and probably 10-15lb depending how aggressive the new one is. But I dunno. Like OP, I'm in an '06. We both have 13WL calipers. Even with my 59lb/ea, near-33" Mickey Thompsons, which are closer to 285/70r17 than their actual branding 275/70r17, I don't feel like my brakes feel anemic or lackluster.

But I know without a doubt my stuff is adjusted properly. My truck brakes 2x better than the late-'90s GMT400 I had prior to the Tundra, and on-par or slightly better than the early-mod '00s GMT800 I had prior to that. I could probably use a little dial-in out back, but generally speaking, I'm pretty happy, so it's not impossible. My LSPV is working properly, things firm up nicely with 4-digit-pound loads of weight out back.

If I were OP, I'd be downloading a copy of the Toyota FSM which is linked up over here. And I'd be checking out the rear brake adjustment theory thread linked above. If it were me, I'd start with the simple change to the LSPV in that #33 reply. If that doesn't put you in locking-up-brakes territory, then it could just be that OP's LSPV isn't working as it should be. But OP may also have the shitty 'unicorn' keg style booster/MC that is known to produce shit-tastic braking.

​

 

I'll check to see is I have the shitty 'unicorn' keg style booster/MC. (don't think so)

Is there any way to troubleshoot the LSPV, to determine if it's working properly?

New shoes should be here in a couple of days and I'll get back on it then. I'll let you guys know if there's any significant improvement.

 

Yes. You may want to take an hour or two to read through this thread: https://www.tundras.com/threads/so-you-wanna-buy-just-bought-a-1st-gen-tundra-eh.115928/

Of utmost importance is about 5 lines into that thread, there's a series of links. One is for the FSM (service manual) for your truck. Download a copy, don't rely on it to always be available online. LSPV adjustment for the 2006 is in section BR-54 which (on my copy at least) is page 2630 / 4947. You may find their instructions are quite difficult to follow for the DIY/shadetree mech, and potentially even some smaller shops.

​

 

On flat ground, short-ish trips, I'd tow a 3,000lb trailer with my Tundra without trailer brakes. In the mountains, no way.

I've experienced, and had friends experience a loss of brakes on long downhills. Yes, this was mostly due to lack of understanding and poor technique, but you can't always control the conditions and circumstances. Someone pulling in front of you or slamming the brakes in town is one thing. Not having adequate braking power on a long, steep downhill is a whole other thing...

I see towing a heavy trailer without trailer brakes like having a heavy slide-in camper, except worse, because it's not just the extra weight taxing your brakes, it's also pushing you from behind. Put a 1,500lb slide-in on your Tundra, and ride the brakes a little on a downhill, you'll lose them. Of course no way to put trailer brakes on a slide-in...Which is one reason that when I look to buy one, I'll keep it as light as possible.

Anyway, FL, short trips? Would be better to have trailer brakes, but you can probably get away without them.

Easy answer to your question...if you don't feel comfortable that the braking system is up to the trailer weight, you're probably right.

 

MT-Tundra hit it on the head pretty good. In short, if you're not comfortable then consider changing the situation. I will however shed a little light on my interpretation of the law in FL:

"(3) BRAKES ON ALL WHEELS.—Every vehicle shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels except:
(a) Trailers, semitrailers, or pole trailers of a gross weight not exceeding 3,000 pounds, provided that:
1. The total weight on and including the wheels of the trailer or trailers shall not exceed 40 percent of the gross weight of the towing vehicle when connected to the trailer or trailers..."

The key here is the 40% gross weight factor. Your DC Tundra 6600 lbs (gross) x 40% = 2640 lbs gross. That doesn't mean scaled either. So you're over the 40% rule and thus aren't within the exception for brakes on your trailer.

Now, I've got a DC as well and do light towing all the time with my 5x10 utility trailer hauling various loads. The heaviest of which being cord wood - which I've often surpassed 3,000 lbs (scaled). For me personally, this is not a load I would want to drive around town/traffic or anywhere else (regularly) without trailer brakes.

You mentioned you wanted to do longer trips with this setup and it sounds like you have a low mileage truck that you're willing to put $ into to rectify braking performance. Are you sure you wouldn't consider a full stainless braking setup for your trailer? If you're willing to sell your truck and buy a bigger tow vehicle, why not invest in the trailer as well - knowing that maintenance/flushing salt water off/routine checks...etc are in your future for salt water dips. Factor in the longer trips/more usage for the trailer and you're better off since the more the brakes are used/maintained the longer they'll actually perform so long as they don't sit unused with salt all over em'.

 

I'll add this . . . we've had saltwater boats my entire life.
The one thing you can count on is trailer brakes failing, no matter what brand.
We used to replace them every single year at the end of the season . . . and every time they'd be TOAST.
We go so irritated with it that we installed a 10 gallon water tank in the bed of the truck hooked up to a 12 volt pump.
We ran a hose from out of the bed, to the trailer axle to a 'T', then ran hoses to the back of the backing plate that we drilled and threaded to accept a hose fitting.
Once on the road we'd flip the switch to pump water then activate the brakes several times.
Even with all that we'd only get 2 seasons out of a set of brakes.

'Marine' disc brakes are no better . . . ESPECIALLY with a lock-out for reverse.

I'll NEVER have a boat that requires trailer brakes, period . . . entirely too much hassle.
Not too mention I've seen entirely too many trips ruined due to brake failure on the way to the boat ramp.

On both of our current boats, and even without trailer brakes, I immediately take the trailer to the wash down rack after I dump the boat in and rinse off the trailer before I park.
Yep . . . it's a complete hassle, but it beats having the trailer soaked in saltwater baking in the sun all day while I'm out fishing.

 

Yep, "been there, done that" with boat trailer brakes (full stainless system), on boat trailer launched in saltwater. My regular ramp that I use (@ Port Canaveral) has fresh water wash down stations and I use them every time as soon as I pull the boat out of the water. Boat trailer brakes are an absolute maint nightmare to deal with - dealt with them for years, no thanks ever again.

 

Oh, checked for "shitty 'unicorn' keg style booster/MC": don't have one of those.

You guys are very helpful and knowledgeable - thanks.


Full on LSPV troubleshooting looks pretty involved, after I get the new shoes installed and adjust the parking brake cables and bellcranks, and adjust the brakes, I think I'll try the LPSV linkage adjustment to see if I can get the rears to skid, this should give me a good indication as to whether the valve is functioning.

 

As Shifty suggested, make sure the rear brakes are working as designed - it makes a big difference.
My suggestion is to start with a more ‘aggressive’ pad on the fronts - Hawk Green Truck/SUV pads are amazing on stock rotors. I use them and they are WAY better than stock pads…great initial bite, and the hotter they get the better they grab. Some also swear by EBC green pads, but I’ve not used them and can’t speak to pros and cons.

 

OK. Installed new shoes on the rear (OEM). Old shoes were only about 1/2 worn, but changed them anyway. Cleaned everything up real good. Properly lubricated backing plates and adjusters, everything nice and free. Manually adjusted shoe contact to slight rubbing. Adjusted bellcranks. Adjusted emergency cables tight. Adjusted LPSV turnbuckle to full extent. Result: brake pedal is still "mushy" (inconsistent and need to pump up), brake effectiveness is not great and no way I could get rear tires to skid.

I'm going to change out front brake hoses to StopTech braided stainless and do a full brake fluid flush and bleed. But I may be dealing with a bad master cylinder. Any tips on how to determine if I definitely have master cylinder problem? Any good links to a source for master cylinder? (Rock Auto has a Raybestos, all new, for $120).

Any other advice? Thanks

 

It would be worth bleeding all brake lines, to rule out the possibility that there is a bubble of air hiding somewhere. There is a prescribed order of operations and procedure for the rear lines, to do it properly. I’m sure there’s a writeup somewhere here on the forum.
And, change the front pads to Hawk Green. You’ll notice a difference, even if the rear brakes are not working 100%

 

Yeah, gonna try to get the front brake lines installed tomorrow and hopefully can get the wife to do the pedal pushing so I can get a good brake bleeding done. If that doesn't get these brakes up to snuff, then I'm still looking for some advice on how to determine if I've got a possible master cylinder issue.

I like the idea of the Hawk "green" (LTS ?) pads, but first I need to get the bleeding and master cylinder troubleshooting out of the way and try to at least get to a point of having a firm brake pedal.

I've decided I'm gonna keep this truck, so, If I get a firm/good pedal and rear brakes that will chirp, and I'm still not happy with the brake system performance, I'll probably upgrade the fronts to 14" 4Runner discs and calipers AND add the Hawk LTS pads.

Thanks for the help guys. Keep it coming. Jim

 

Is this photo what your refering to as the unicorn keg style ?

 

Hey boss, my truck stays hooked to a trailer about 90% of its life. I tow with it pretty much as its leg exercise, every time it cranks its pulling something. I can tell you one thing i learned to do was use the gear shifter and manually downshift it to slow down. When the load is high, the brakes are not the greatest in the world, downshift it manually to allow the engine to slow you down. You would be surprised at how effective this is and will shorten your stopping distance in half. Let off the throttle, reach up and downshift the shifter into 3rd and apply your brakes, continue with your foot on the brake and when the engine RPM gets around 2000 or so, downshift again into 2nd while maintaining pedal pressure. When the trans downshifts and the engine RPM increases, the vacuum will also increase and you get a huge surge in braking right when the engine revs up, and the vacuum is increased. As you continue to slow down, keep pressure on the pedal and when the RPM gets low enough downshift into LOW if you have to. The engine braking, along with light pedal pressure will cut your stopping distance in half. Once you get used to doing this its simply second nature almost like running a manual shift on the column. I have the new big brakes and i still do this just so i dont eat the brakes up.

Typically if you are on the highway 65-70, you let off the throttle before taking the exit, apply 30-40% pressure to the brakes and ride the brakes until you get closer to the stopping point and then increase pedal pressure 50-60-70% until you stop.

With this downshifting method, you use a lot less brakes, let off the throttle before taking exit, apply 20% pressure to the brakes and downshift into 3rd, when the engine decompression braking happens, you get a surge of braking BUT you can also feel a huge surge in your foot braking too from the massive kick in vacuum pressure helping boost your 20% braking pressure to make it feel like 50+%. As the engine winds down you can feel your steady foot pressure feel like its doing less work. When the RPM gets low downshift into 2nd and you get the same big surge in engine braking, along with a big boost in foot braking even though you dont move your pedal position. This method typically helps slow you down way faster, and also reduces your foot braking pedal pressure. Both of which helps your brakes live longer.

Been doing this for years and years and years on my tacomas and 4runners and its not uncommon for me to get 150,000 miles out of brake pads even though i tow practically daily. The tacoma and 4runner are easy with the center console shifter that you simply bump with the palm of your hand.