This may be over the top...

Has anyone ran one of these up front instead of a camera when installing the anytime front/back camera set up?

https://speedir.com/nightowl

 

I run one but different brand, FLIR pathfindir.

I thought about running the video feed to the anytime camera but I use the rear video all the time when driving. I found it helps see blind spots for lane changes, can see small cars behind me at stop lights, etc. Although I have a cap and don't remember what rear visibility is like without one. I I didn't need the rear camera all the time then I'd definitely rum the thermal camera feed to the stock HU.

So, I have a dedicated 7" TFL monitor that I keep in my console unless I'm driving in the dark. I just have to plug in a single wire connection coming from the HU area and the monitor is held by a magnet mount (pro clip) by the air vent.

$1500 is pretty cheap for a thermal camera system. The FLIR is what comes in the high end mercedes and bmw and is about $4k aftermarket.

It's amazing driving at night with it though. I don't know why more people don't run one when they spend so much on light bars and other lighting uogrades which you can't even turn on with other cars around without blinding them.

 

I was wondering the same thing. From other cars to animals off the side of the road at night. Hell I had a Florida panther run rite in front of me on the interstate. I caught it out of my left eye two hops and it was across the road! I was doing 85 on the cruise control. I’ve got the Alpine Halo9 head unit and I know it’s not the top resolution you can buy anymore since technology is proficient in the use of sandpaper condoms but will it work? How intense is the thermal you have? Can you see footprints after the source is gone or is that crazy expectations?

 

Can't see footprints but it's very obviously if there's an animal person or running vehicle from very very far away. It operates on a 2x zoom so you still need decent headlight output for what's just in front and to the sides.

You can still make out the landscape (trees, road surface, etc) off in the distance way before you can with your eyes, but anything living will show up bright white.

 

Very cool man really appreciate your expertise!

 

The head unit will be more than adequate since the camera

• Output resolution: HD 720x480p @60hz

 

It doesn't look well protected or ruggedized. You'll also want to consider mounting it where the engine heat won't interfere with it. As far as being a driver aid I would want to display it closer to your natural point of attention vice displaying it down on your head unit. Looking away from the road to monitor the display introduces its own problems.

You may be better off with a head-mounted monocle for driving at night or a more reputable thermal imaging company.

 

Sweet mother of pearl, didn't know I needed one of these!

 

You’re welcome...lol

 

You're correct about it being better to keep the monitor closer to your view out on the road. But these systems also have software that boxes animals or people while making an alarm/beep. My monitor is just above the air vent, so in a decent position but I still just treat it as you do with a rear view mirror by checking it every few seconds.

Anyhow, I don't agree that looking at a forward facing monitor is a distraction. It's the same picture you see in front of you, although I wouldn't want to try to keep my car in my lane by just looking at the thermal image.

I'm not sure how rugged the one is in the first post, but it looks like a copy of the FLIR. These things are built like beasts. Military and law enforcement use them often. Some even mount them on drones. They are built to much higher standards than your typical on road vehicle.

I get these aren't for everyone, especially for what they cost. But I'd be careful making too many opinions if you've not driven with one or know much about them. My wife almost certainly would have totaled her car twice in the last 3 years if it wasn't for the thermal camera picking up a pack of deer about to dart across the road from the woods.

 

And hitting that herd would have totaled the Tundra and ruined the meat! With the thermo cam you can pick them off like a pro...

 

"head mounted monocle" only works for traditional light intensification night vision (think green-only video from video games/tv). That type of night vision is great for driving without headlights, but doesn't give you the same instant animal detection that thermal does.

Thermal can't see through the windshield, so you'd have to put your head out the window or have a remote camera+display setup. If you can manage to keep a peripheral eye on your rear-view for vehicles, incorporating a scan of the headunit shouldn't be too difficult though a high mount dash or A-pillar mount is easier for me personally.

 

First off, to be clear, I'm advocating for the OP to get the most bang for the buck. I'm not making any assumptions about anyone's ability to afford an aftermarket ADAS, thermal or any other. I am questioning this particular product's quality, which is a big concern for a system being bought for the purpose of increasing driving safety. A safety system should be highly reliable and dependable. A vehicle mounted camera should be durable and weather proof. It is possible this brand is a unicorn with a great product but that is not what I'm not seeing in their documentation.

I'm sharing my experience from the perspectives of: a user (including extensive long term nighttime driving), a maintainer performing repairs and calibration on optics, comms and other electronics, and as an installer with considerations to include vehicle integration and display ergonomics.

No. The system posted by the OP specifically does not have these detection feature. It is only available on a different model, the upgraded Night Owl Plus, which has:AI assisted detection, framing and audio alerts: https://speedir.com/nightowlplus-thermal-driving-car-camera

You misconstrued what I wrote. I didn't say this at all. I specifically said it should be near your natural attention(focus) while driving. In contrast, having to focus down and to the right to look at your head unit (radio display) to view thermal anomalies while driving is very distracting, introduces attention and muscle fatigue, and eye strain over time. These ergonomic factors are less of an issue if the display is used for low speed and/or short term driving applications.

For long term driving, it is safer to display it in dash like the German automakers do (which may not be an option for the Tundra) or above the instrument cluster where it doesn't impede the view of the windshield. Even if the Night Owl Plus detection chimes alleviate the need to constantly monitor a display I wouldn't want to look away from the road if something is detected; you are eating up precious reaction time by looking down and to the right if you need to avoid something in an emergency. So please don't misstate my comment.

No. This product doesn't meet any MIL STDs for environmental resistance or ruggedization. It would explicitly state which standards are met in the specifications. Comparing products of similar appearances doesn't necessarily imply similar functional and environmental performance. This is not a high grade FLIR quality system even if vendor claims it is military grade thermal system.

The only standards compliance mentioned, the manufacture states the camera is waterproof to IP68 which means it is submersible to 1 meter minimum (they state 1.5 meters) or more and is dust proof. Newer phones meet this standard, it doesn't mean I would mount one to the front of my vehicle and expect it survive long term duty usage. Its not IP69K (ISO 20653) compliant which means its not rated for vehicle use (mainly high pressure washing) and is missing any mention of compliance to shock(vibration) resistance standards(even if the manufacture/distributor makes this claim).

To get back on track, the quality and robustness of the lens is a concern. Military FLIRs use lenses that are rated to withstand impact. Assuming this lens isn't impact resistant (its not stated anywhere that it is), I would look at a solution that has a replaceable outer lens. This may not be possible if the design is sealed and uses special gasses as a layer between the lens and the sensor. The other option is mounting and protecting the camera sensor where the the risk of cracking the lens is minimized if cracking cant be eliminated entirely. The problem with protecting thermal cameras with a clear panel, the camera picks up the heat signature of what is directly in front of the lens. You can't just put a random protective shield in front of it like the radar sensor of the cruise control. The protection needs to allow thermal radiation to pass through it, which limits available protective options. Even something like a protective mesh (somewhere between chicken wire and screen door mesh) could interfere with the camera functioning properly. If you put the camera too far back in the grill you pick up the heat radiation from the engine bay components which effectively distorts what the sensor picks up if it doesn't outright blind the sensor.

There are numerous other issues to consider as well. As an example if you plan on using this in colder weather this optic doesn't mention any lens warming features where cold weather can "blind" the sensor as well. Inclement weather in general is an issue with these types of systems as some lens coatings are sensitive to moisture such as fog and rain. Its why most modern ADAS use overlapping modes of detection.

If OP is all in for a thermal, for $1800 I would consider the upgraded AI assisted option over the base model. I still think a FRAC setup will be problematic for the camera long term as it still leaves the issue of properly and effectively protecting the lens. At that price point I think there are better options on the market from more reputable makers. An example here is a FLIR product made for vehicles and it comes with its own display. https://www.flir.com/products/pathfindir-ii/

 

I didn't have a specific technology or solution in mind when I made that comment. Commercial grade "night vision" has come a long way since the monochrome days and isn't necessarily limited to low light intensification. While technically correct as you describe, the term "night vision" has come to cover IR (overlaps but not necessarily low light), Thermal and UV solutions as well, some are even hybrid solutions. While Thermal solutions can only "see" through certain materials, its correct these cannot see through glass (automotive or any other). However IR sensitive cameras can see through auto glass where thermals cannot. These camera solutions can be mounted inside the vehicle. I also tested an IR illuminator inside the vehicle with no glare or light washout. A quick glance at the market tells me IR based solutions are much cheaper than a thermal based system. Some of these solution include an AI classification assistant that frames objects of interest and alerts the driver.

Again to clarify my position and recommendations, if my only options were the system, with no AI as posted in the OP, displayed on the head unit display, I would take a head mounted option any day. For the price you can find some decent wearable "night vision" that isn't tethered to you car permanently IMO. Personally this has more utility to me but requires training to drive this way. Understandably this may be out of reach for some folks.

Now if we are going to move the goalposts and add an AI assistant to the system in the OP I would still want the display in my "working area" while I'm driving. Looking down to right for alerts is a NoGo for me personally, especially for long range driving at highway speeds. I would route the display to either the A pillar (my phone is in this location) as you describe, above the instrument panel, or high up by the visors (my gauges are located here). If its a system to get me home driving down country maintenance roads at lower speeds it won't matter where its displayed, you can stop before you hit anything at lower speeds. With audio alerts you may not even need to look at the display.

The AI enabled equivalent to the OPs system is $1800 to $1900 on sale. My point is this is close to FLIR Pathfinder 2 money if you can find it on sale; Google search the SKU/part number. The FLIR may be cheaper with LEO/MIL/VET discounts. I'll take the FLIR over the SpeedIR system any day. Its a known reputable brand and it comes with its own display you can mount anywhere in your cab.

If you need the thermal solution get the thermal. ADAS are always useful when used properly. After experimenting with an IR solution it looks like you can mount all of your equipment, camera and illuminator included, inside the cab, which opens up other options not limited to thermals. These also come with AI classification and alert assistants at a quarter of the price. You won't have to deal with broken camera lenses or other weather related issues. Is IR interchangeable and on the same class as thermal? No but its a decent substitute for less.

Autoline had a recent interview with ADASKY (spell), cars will be required to have Thermal ADAS. Unless it is critical to have it now, I would wait to hear more news about this mandate and the ADASKY Viper price point. This will impact the overall market significantly. If its critical to have now I would either get a stop gap IR solution or go all in on a FLIR.

Hard pass on the SpeedIR Night Owl.

 

Nothing was set in stone for me just wanted to smoke it over with the community and find out if anyone has tried using a similar setup. All valid points and I appreciate all perspectives. To much money to be dishing out to end up in a oh well moment!

 

Here is an install and demo of the Night Owl Plus with AI:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCWbOtjnbKs

 

Roger. Give me a few days to look into how to protect the camera before you pull the trigger.

Here is a what is in the box video:
https://youtu.be/_1l1rWrDcFI

 

FLIR PathfindIR 2 Demo:
https://youtu.be/ldqRiGYD1QE
FLIR PF2 Install (notice the John 100 comment bitching about the camera lens, I'm not the only nut concerned about this):
https://youtu.be/yRz1zQgU-ck

 

Wowza.

I said the one in the OP looks like a copy of the FLIR that I'm running. By that I mean, looks only. I didn't go read through the specs.

I run the pathfindir 2 as mentioned. The lens has an impact resistant and replaceable cover, a heater element, IP69, etc.

I've ran this for 7 years now it's bee. Through freezing temps, 100+ heat, dozens of car washes, etc. Hasn't missed a beat. I just wipe the lens cover every so often but even with thick road grime it still works.

Have you spent any time driving with one?

Just a hint, if you're patient you can find the pathfindir 2 without their expensive monitor, brand new for less than the system in the OP.

 

No I haven’t driven with one yet but I’m looking forward to it. Have you ever seen a small style projector to display to your windshield? If that’s not a option what about mounting the screen in the driver side sun visor?

 

Like a HUD (heads up display)?

 

I just run a 7" TFL monitor which sits above my right side air vent. I have no problem noticing if there are any also or people coming up without having to stair at the screen. It works well for me

 

Germanium (prefered) or Zinc Selenide for a protective window on thermal based solutions (like the Night Owl in the OP). These allow thermal radiation to pass but can distort or degrade the image. A low tech low cost solution is to use or make a mesh out of fishing line or something stronger to block debris. Something thin so the camera wont pick it up at certain distances

The FLIR IR based system lens replacements are $300 a piece. I would recommend tucking/flipping the camera into a safe position when it is not in use. Even though it is not ideal, you can test to see if it can be mounted inside the vehicle cabin to protect it from road debris. Digital based IR night vision can see through most autoglass. The 3M IR film on my windows didn't interfere with the sensor or IR illuminator I tested as long they were not perpendicular to the surface.

For a HUD something like a HUDWAY Drive can substitute a screen by taking direct camera input; I have not used this product so I don't know if its any good. The video demo is towards the end of the presentation.

https://youtu.be/-QKa4pTil8M

Good luck.

 

But you are the most tasty and nutritious!!

 

LOL

I've been running mine with the same lens cover for 7 years now!

In post 13 you stated the lens is not replaceable. Or did I misconstrue your reply again?

There's no need to add complications of a flip up mount for when not in use, etc. If you are unlucky and something happens, there's a replacement clover available. It's not like people driving with these are replacing covers every year.

You never answered if you've owned or driven with one of these. If your just offering assumptions based on opinions and not experience then you should point that out so the OP and others can form their own ideas based on their research.

Anyways, I never bothered to price out a lens cover but at $300 I would just find the same deal I got on my complete system, take what I need from it and sell the rest as parts. I would likely make a small profit this way.

For me, owning this system has been easy. Besides finding the deal I wanted and doing the install, I haven't had to think about it one bit. If I drive at night I just plug in the monitor and off I go.

 

Will this system help me avoid mailboxes at night? Tundra steering is woefully inadequate.

 

Post 13 I was addressing the limitation of the Night Owl system, you know the one the OP was asking about. It does not have a replaceable lens or it is not specified anywhere by the manufacture/distributor if it does.

The post you quoted specifically addressed the FLIR. Its literally written in the quote. Not sure what your issue is, are you tracking now?

I already address this.

If you think the Night Owl is a good system then endorse it. Or you could have been helpful and pointed out its issues and endorsed a better product. But you didn't. So please, carry on.

 

Only if they are human or deer shaped. Or if they are on fire.

 

Here is a FLIR install vid, as a true thermal you can't mount it inside without a special material windshield (for some reason I thought the FLIR was IR based that simulated Thermal). It also has a range for optimal placement and orientation for this model:
https://youtu.be/KQSoagoP5_E

Issues in humid, foggy and rainy environments for OP:
https://www.rdforum.org/threads/91439/

 

LOL it seems you assumed I was referring to the system from the OP when I was giving my own opinions based on my personal experience for the FLIR.

I know nothing about the system in the OP. I haven't even looked at it besides the picture in post 1

I at least can give some positive remarks from real world experience about the FLIR with 7 years driving with one. You are just down playing everything trying to point out potential issues without having any real experience yourself. Seems you just dove deep into research just to argue here but I'm just trying to have a positive discussion for some interesting technology. No need to be so negative here, which seems to be your objective. Post 26 was a poor attempt at humor which you either didn't catch and tried to give a technical answer to, or you continued with the humor (which was another poor attempt, mail box on fire? Lol)

CavalryCrew, I'll send you a PM if you want to discuss further. I have details on my install and can give some tips how to find the FLIR for a good deal.