Question on mild lift using Bil 5100 and OME springs

I rest your case. Thickness of the wire and thickness of the leaf do infact change the spring rate. You know what else does on leaf springs specifically? Length of the leaf.

 

if you watch the video I was referencing, which was what the other guy was using as his basis for not liking the ICON 51100 kit, you’d see the guy in the video claim the ICON spring kit isn’t good for the Tundra cause it’s made for Tacoma’s and something about parts not being the same.
Then if you’d read my post, I clearly stated that everything IS practically the same minus the upper front strut bolt pattern, other than that the spring rates of the front springs, shock body, upper A-arms, spindles, lower A-arms, brakes, Ect are all practically identical in form and function and shape. The axle is a bit beefier and the rear leaves a little longer but otherwise the trucks are basically twins the g1 tundra is just slightly bigger.

 

I must've misunderstood. My bad.
However it is indeed spec'd for a first gen Tacoma. I've talked to Wheelers off road about it in the past, because they sell both the icon and their own AAL. Infact Wheelers used to sell a similarly spec'd AAL to Icons, however at only $10 more for the HD version, they decided to discontinue their non HD version because no one was buying it. So now all they sell is their HD version of their AAL and the Icon AAL.

 

I guess I’m the only guy who the ICON are working out for. I’m happy. I remember using this forum for a basis on info in research for pretty much everything I have done to my vehicle. I don’t remember reading anything negative on the ICON stuff a year or two ago when I did these springs drop shackle and taller bump stops. Guess the times change.

 

First off, your truck looks great. If it rides well for you, that’s awesome, you should be stoked. If 3/4” - 1” lift in the rear is what you needed, then you bought the perfect product. I recommend ICON AAL all day long for anyone who (A) needs roughly an inch of rear lift and (B) doesn’t plan on hauling anything heavy or towing significant stuff, (C) doesn’t mind ditching their overload leaf. It’s the perfect solution for that use-case. And blocks for lowering / lifting are a cheap, shitty bandaid, AAL is a far better solution. You’ll rarely ever see me recommend blocks for anything.

If I have harsh words about the ICON AAL, it’s for a simple reason. I think we all have basic expectations of what we’re going to get for our money. A lot of expectation is based on what the manufacturer says you’re going to get. ICON is being totally dishonest at worst, and extremely misleading at best for Tundra owners regarding how much lift you’re going to get with their AAL kit on the 1st Gens, or they have been. When a product gives me HALF of what I expect based on their claims, of course I’ll be disappointed. Stupid part is, @FirstGenVol warned me about this, and I didn’t listen. That happens to me often, because I’m a skeptical asshole. (EDIT: actually, I think it’s because I, just like you, was poking around here, TS, and a couple other places looking for product recommendations and the ICON AAL was being spoken favorably about….)

Maybe it’s a fluke or a manufacturing defect that got me and him both with less-than-advertised lift? I think if you go back to 2019-2020 era, you’ll find a lot of stern warnings about not using ICON coilovers also, bug problems with the shock blowing out leaking/bad seals/whatever. I suspect that was just an issue with a specific batch of product or manufacturing run, but it happened to a couple of people, and it stuck as part of their reputation. It sucks when stuff like that happens, but how you handle it as a company says a lot. Surely by now they know their AAL doesn’t work as advertised for the 1st Gen Tundra, when I checked a couple months ago, they hadn’t updated their claims.

I have no doubt ICON a quality product. What I got was nice for the AAL. Well-finished, solid instructions. And I stand by it being a good product overall. I think (from direct experience) the product is overpriced for what you get, and they’d be doing themselves a huge favor if they stopped claiming fitment for the 1st Gen Tundra OR put up numbers that match reality AND they give a very clear, very loud warning you in the product features saying YOU MUST remove your overload lead to use their product, because I think that single point will dissuade some people from using the product. Hell, I think anyone like me who actually uses their truck as a truck and hauls heavy stuff around occasionally would be turned off by losing their overload.

 

What's strange to me is the wheelers AAL says you can keep the OL or not. I kept it on both my Tacos, but ditched it on my Tundra. So I'm not sure if their AAL would work with OL on a Tundra.

 

With the ICON specifically, the instructions tell you it's gotta go. Seems like an important detail to inform customers about in the item info, not buried in the instructions they'll only read (possibly) after they've got the product in-hand.

I installed it with the overload because I needed that extra 5/8" of lift else I'd have been squatting. In doing so, the rivets holding the ICON AAL together (I think on the rebound clip, I can't remember) were digging in on the overload, which is why I think they require you to remove them OL entirely.

 

that rzr I posted pictures of, is headed to Phoenix today because of engine issues. It’s blown two head gaskets and rubs terrible. Come to find out the intake valves have stretched, yes stretched, and are not closing fully allowing compression to blow back into the intake. At 40psi of boost things aren’t happy and it was detonating. First head gasket we assumed it was just head gasket. Fixed it and went back tuning. Blew another head gasket. Started checking and found valve lash on intake valves were way way out of spec. Pulled head and checked and found the valves are stretched and not seating in the valve seats. Called the engine builder (very expensive aftermarket valves) and they said
“Naw never seen it before.”
I said…. Well it’s coming back.
Sometimes weird problems arise
Sometimes the manufacturer didn’t run into issues in their initial testing and think everything is solid
Maybe sometimes the manufacturer didn’t do any initial testing
I dunno but weird things happen

 

I'm not here to make enemies over a 0.75" discrepancy...

I think I can add on what @shifty` said as well as address some of what @badass03taco was explaining.

Onto the AAL

This would be a great piece of feedback if I had actually spent 8 minutes repeating this sentiment. That's not the case. In the first minute I say that "Mostly [The 96-23 Tacoma and 00-06 Tundra] cannot share the same aftermarket parts". That's it, that's the idea. It's unusual for these vehicles to share aftermarket parts. If you were looking for most suspension components, you would see different part numbers for each vehicle. It's not, however, my main argument. My main argument in the video is that it's at minimum confusing and at worst irresponsible that ICON advertises a 1.5" lift for so many different vehicles that have vastly varying rear bed weights. That's what I care about, so that's what I'll focus on.

I'm not sure this adds up. If you would like to defend the idea that you would get 1" of squat from an additional 300-400 lbs, that seems like a pretty weight-sensitive (low spring rate) spring. Now, certainly, I'm of the assumption that these leaf springs do not provide a perfectly linear correlation between lift height and axle weight. But, if you observed the math I used in the video, the tundra sees something like 400 lbs more weight at the rear axle than the tacoma does. And even among tacoma variants, there's gonna be a wide discrepancy in rear axle weight, at least as wide as 400 lbs between all the possible cab and bed configurations of 96-23 tacomas and 00-06 tundras. I compared an access cab tundra to an extended cab taco, both 01's. Who knows what a double cab tundra or taco vs a a short bed single cab taco might be. By this math, all access cab and extended cab 00-06 tundras would be something around an inch shorter than most tacoma applications, stock truck vs stock truck. I'm not buying that, especially since I do have extra weight in the bed and am only down by 0.75".

There's some assumptions baked in here, but the weight discrepancy between all the advertised applications for the AAL suggests that some applications are going to get more or less than 1.5" of lift. This is what I experienced on my truck. But, as I state in the video, I'm not going to warranty the spring because I've inferred that it's not possible to provide exactly 1.5" of lift for 2 different pickups across a total of 4 different generations and 20+ model years. From the video, "I think my results fit somewhere in the gamut of reasonable, possible things that could have happened".

I wish Icon provided more nuanced data around these applications, because I and some others have just not gotten what we were first expecting out of it. The advertising feels misleading.

Another misquote. Not the point I was making. The trucks are similar, but as I briefly stated, their parts are not interchangeable. I did not spend a long time on this idea.


Another good aside in this conversation is new vs saggy OEM leaf springs. I'd love to know more about how springs work and whether it matters, but I can only speculate. All I can remember about springs from school is that f = k*x, which I'm sure is an algebraic oversimplification. My inclination says it matters a little, but Icon doesn't provide consumers with that info, and I think they should consider doing so.

@shifty` sums up my position pretty well. The product says 1.5" for my application, and I got 0.75". I am glad to hear that other people like it or are getting what's advertised, but I'm not in a position to recommend it, and I made a YouTube video to describe my thought process. There are too many applications with widely varying rear axle weights for everyone to end up with 1.5" of lift, and I thought that other people should be aware of that if Icon wasn't going to disclose it.

As for the skyjackers or blocks, my next step (if any) is a full leaf pack. Thanks for the offer.

 

Thanks for your input, Tyler.

I would say it IS misleading, versus just 'feeling' misleading. And I left a review to that effect on Summit Racing's site, as a warning to others.

Do we have someone with a 1st gen Tundra that's gotten the advertised 1.5"? I must've missed that. All I've heard is "inch or less" unless overload was left in, as I did with mine, and gained about 1.25" with overload installed.

I can't recommend enough the ~$600 shipped ATS HD springs for a no-nonsense 1.75" - 2" lift if you're going that route. Link in my signature, if on mobile, rotating your phone to landscape mode should make the signature appear on most devices.

 

Agreed.

I couldn't name anyone off the top of my head, just covering my bases.

 

i can agree to this
but when the OP asked about these springs, it seemed everyone jumped on the "they are bad" bandwagon and were likely using yours and shiftys input on the subjeck't as if it was written in an encyclopedia, rather than an opinion. I am not saying either of you two are wrong, you both are surely right because before and after measurements are hard to fudge especially with pictures and data present.
All i was saying, is that the consensus on the board (prior to them becoming bad) was that they were great, gave some lift and rode better than stock and squatted less than stock when loaded.
I wanted to squat less than stock loaded [X]
i wanted to ride a little better than stock [X]
i wanted a little extra lift over stock [X]
i was actually looking for exactly 1.5" [--]

 

Actually, I been saying Icon AALs were inferior to Wheelers AALs for years and years, but no one listened. So now several members learned the hard ways, including @FirstGenVol
Infact, that video was incredibly late to the party. It just got the most attention.

Again, I spoke to Wheelers about their products and Icons. You can say maybe wheelers would boast their product over icons, however Wheelers sells both products. So I have no reason to doubt their motives, plus I've had three great experiences with wheelers AALs on three different ToyotasI've owned. While I've seen several members here complain about Icon. I've never seen a complaint about Wheelers AAL.

 

You know what? What Tyler and I said NEEDS to be said! You know why? If it had been stated as clearly by others as it is in this thread, I wouldn't have gotten burned. If people listened to you, more people would get burned like I got burned, and like @FirstGenVol got burned.

Truth of the matter is, @FirstGenVol warned me about the ICON AALs and I didn't listen (sorry dude, shoulda listened). It had nothing to do with him specifically, I believe things he says, but that little voice in the back of my head was, like, "There's no way a reputable company would make a claim like that and only deliver halfway. And shit, nobody has said much bad about them at all on Tundras.com, so ... it can't be THAT bad, right?"

Wrong.

When companies fail to deliver, people on here need to be saying things like "they are bad" and we NEED a "they are bad" bandwagon. Not only to show companies this is absolutely fucking unacceptable, but also to save our fellow bretheren the heartache or wallet-ache of throwing their hard earned money into something that doesn't work as advertised, which then results in them having to spend MORE hard earned money on something that does.

I will 1,000% continue to cane my story:

If you must go AAL, and need 1.5" lift, go Wheelers
If you must go AAL, and need 0.75" lift and don't mind losing your overload leaf, consider ICON
Ideally, if you want 1.75" - 2" lift and don't want to drop $1k+ on new leafs, go with the ATS HD springs
​

Don't be me. I've still got my ICON AAL kit (minus u-bolts) for sale for dirt cheap in the 1st Gen Marketplace forum, and it hasn't sold in months. I've sold off all my used low-mile OEM suspension bits already, the AAL kit is still sitting there. I can't even give the f'n thing away. Should tell you all you need to know. Avoid it, unless you need less than an inch of rear lift, and don't need/want an overload leaf.

 

Well said guys. The ICON add a leaf is equivalent to throwing money in the trash. Waste of money, time, and effort.